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An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

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Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your hiring process is broken by people using AI then the process is either not evaluating the right things, or maybe it's fine because realistically speaking you're hiring a dev who's going to be using AI anyway.

Interviews seek to estimate long-term job performance. Since they cannot measure this directly, they measure attributes that correlate with performance. If you interfere with these measurements (e.g. through fraud), you break those correlations. This doesn't mean the interviews are measuring the wrong thing, or that people who cheat on the interviews will meet the performance bar in the actual job. If someone uses AI…

First off, yes, actually that's exactly what it means. If bots can solve CAPTCHAS then the CAPTCHAS are poorly designed, that's the whole point.

I don't think this sort of CAPTCHA type step should have a significant place in a good interview process in the first place, if it is important to you to put your applicants through this sort of gauntlet you're not treating them with the dignity they deserve.

If you're just looking to fill cogs in your machine, sure, but in that case you're just as likely to get kids who studied a bunch of interview questions but also don't know shit. I'd just as soon have someone who's good at ChatGPT.

Let me put it a different, perhaps simpler way:

Let's agree on the premise that good human engineers are much better hires than good AI users. If your hiring process fails to distinguish between good human engineers and good AI users that's evidence that your process is not producing good data.

In the exact same way that if your CAPTCHA is getting solved by bots it's a bad CAPTCHA.

Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#222
In my recent experience, CS courses should incorporate acting classes to help future job seekers. Right now more interviewees than I expected are doing a really bad job at trying to fool interviewers with LLMs and tools like this one. It's blatant obvious and too easy to catch cheaters (and then they are banned from any future positions on ethical grounds).

Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#223
post #88

The long term "solution" here for candidates will devolve to a second device that uses a camera and microphone to monitor the device from which they are being tested and presents feedback on a second monitor visible to the applicant but not interviewer. For interviewers, the solution will be proctored testing centers with metal detectors and all devices required to be in a locker outside the test area. (This is how t…

This whole thing is getting ridiculous and is a symptom of wealth inequality and our cutthroat society that demands we pay for the privilege of being able to work.

Maybe?

It's also true that pretty much the most powerful AIs in existence are available to anyone willing to fork over twenty bucks a month and you'd be hard pressed to get better algorithmic outputs as a nation state with $100m to blow.

So there's an angle that suggests that this is not primarily a story about wealth inequality but rather savvy in wielding tools.

Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#224

Great job on further eroding the trust from a prospective employer. Require a formal degree in CS? That's gatekeeping. Need to pass a whiteboard exam? Not representative of the actual work. Live coding session? Biased against people who don't perform well under pressure. Take home project? It's too much work to do for free. Showcase a personal portfolio? Not fair to people with families or other obligations. Either y…

If your hiring process is broken by people using AI then the process is either not evaluating the right things, or maybe it's fine because realistically speaking you're hiring a dev who's going to be using AI anyway.

I find this all rather intriguing because to me it says more about the employers/interviewers than the applicants.

Over the years I've interviewed many people for technical positions and there are many ways of getting to the core of a prospective employee's competence.

Of course there are questions about training, past experience, qualifications and those about the work you expect them to perform but other matters also enter the equation and they're almost as important (the person's demeanor, confidence, etc.). By letting the person do most of the talking—explaining things about themselves and their work—you can learn a great deal.

Stating the obvious, interviewers ought to be on top of the job they're hiring for but from this story and from other anecdotal info I know that's not always so. In my case as head of the department I was pretty much up to speed on most aspects of the work, so it was clear to me when an applicant was spinning me BS. If they knew more than I did then they almost certainly got the job (life's easier when you've smart employees, for starters one can ask them questions instead of vice versa).

What's that leading up to? Well, when interviewing it was obvious to me (and to the other interviewers) within just the first few minutes whether the person was worth considering. It's uncanny how good one can become at doing this (and my record speaks for itself, I was pretty pleased with those employees I hired).

Let me illustrate with an example: some decades ago I had an applicant apply for an electronics job. He spoke only Chinese and a few broken words in English and none of us on the interview panel spoke Chinese. BTW, he turned up with a Chinese/English dictionary in hand.

I dispelled with many of the questions I usually asked and showed him a somewhat complex circuit diagram with many subsections that performed very different functions (if I showed this at all then it was usually towards the end of an interview).

Within seconds of looking at the diagram he progressed logically through the processes from beginning to the end (note the processes/stages were not drawn in linear progression and consisted of many branches). He did this mainly by pointing.

It was immediately obvious to both my independent technical assessor and me that this guy knew his subject very well. The only point was a minor objection from the nontechnical employment officer who questioned if we'd manage to communicate adequately with someone who didn't speak English. I didn't see that as a significant issue.

He turned out to be an excellent employee who knew his work very well. And within six months his English was good enough not to be an issue.

In summary, if AI is a problem now then it will be more so in the future and that needs to be tackled. That said, I find it hard to accept that an experienced interviewer can't quickly cut to the core even when an interviewee puts up smoke screens and distracting noise.

Like, Popper's falsifiability it doesn't take much to knock a BS or inconsistent argument off its pedestal when one has enough data, refutability usually works well.

That said, one must always keep in mind that just because an applicant can get some things wrong it doesn't mean that he/she isn't the best person for the job. All that tells me is that I have to probe a little deeper.

Edit: asking awkward or trick questions usually ought to be avoided. An interviewee is usually already under considerable stress and can easily be flummoxed when asked them (even if they know the answers they can bind up and not spell them out).

Usually, it's immediately obvious when an interviewee doesn't know an answer to a question or is struggling with it because of stress—body language alone usually makes that abundantly clear. It's then best to gently segue to another question. If the question is really relevant to the job then one can return to it at the end of the interview when the person is more at ease. By then, it's pretty clear to the panel whether the applicant is in the running or not. If not, then do not return to the question.

Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interviews seek to estimate long-term job performance. Since they cannot measure this directly, they measure attributes that correlate with performance. If you interfere with these measurements (e.g. through fraud), you break those correlations. This doesn't mean the interviews are measuring the wrong thing, or that people who cheat on the interviews will meet the performance bar in the actual job. If someone uses AI…

First off, yes, actually that's exactly what it means. If bots can solve CAPTCHAS then the CAPTCHAS are poorly designed, that's the whole point. I don't think this sort of CAPTCHA type step should have a significant place in a good interview process in the first place, if it is important to you to put your applicants through this sort of gauntlet you're not treating them with the dignity they deserve. If you're just…

Right, so the problem with the interview process isn't that it tests the wrong skills, but that it fails to prevent the secret use of AI such that a human can appear to possess those skills when they do not, in fact, possess them.

It seems there are at least two different perspectives:

A) If a human can use AI to pass a remote interview that they would otherwise fail, then the questions are unsuitable for use in interviews, whether remote or in person.

B) If a human can use AI to pass a remote interview that they would fail if it were face to face, then the questions may be reasonable, but the safeguards for remote interviews are insufficient.

I disagree with A.

Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#226

Great job on further eroding the trust from a prospective employer. Require a formal degree in CS? That's gatekeeping. Need to pass a whiteboard exam? Not representative of the actual work. Live coding session? Biased against people who don't perform well under pressure. Take home project? It's too much work to do for free. Showcase a personal portfolio? Not fair to people with families or other obligations. Either y…

I prefer our current system over the industry standards exam system you seem to be advocating for. It’s more flexible. Different companies care about different things. Different employees have different strengths. It all works out.

Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#227

Great job on further eroding the trust from a prospective employer. Require a formal degree in CS? That's gatekeeping. Need to pass a whiteboard exam? Not representative of the actual work. Live coding session? Biased against people who don't perform well under pressure. Take home project? It's too much work to do for free. Showcase a personal portfolio? Not fair to people with families or other obligations. Either y…

I'm a little confused about your reasoning that take home projects are too much work to do for free. Aren't lawyers and doctors expected to spend a ton of time studying and taking the licensing exams without being paid (I assume even having to pay for it)? My gut feeling is that's more work than a take home project.

Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#228

Great job on further eroding the trust from a prospective employer. Require a formal degree in CS? That's gatekeeping. Need to pass a whiteboard exam? Not representative of the actual work. Live coding session? Biased against people who don't perform well under pressure. Take home project? It's too much work to do for free. Showcase a personal portfolio? Not fair to people with families or other obligations. Either y…

I'm a little confused about your reasoning that take home projects are too much work to do for free. Aren't lawyers and doctors expected to spend a ton of time studying and taking the licensing exams without being paid (I assume even having to pay for it)? My gut feeling is that's more work than a take home project.

Licensing exam scores are usable for applying generally to all places. A take home I do for company A isn't useful in applying at company B.

Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you want sympathy but it just shows that some people just don't understand the power dynamics of an interview. I believe live coding is a scourge and we should get rid of it altogether. Get a tiny open ended project, which requires more design/architecture skills than actually finishing the solution. You do it at your own time and shouldn't take more than 1-2h. You submit it and provide your mental pro…

> I believe live coding is a scourge and we should get rid of it altogether. I would take an hour of live coding any time over a take-home task that is one hour only on paper and takes you three in reality. Engineering is collaboration, and it's fair to expect candidates to talk, solve problems, and explain their solutions. Where we could do better as an industry is the type of problems we give to people. I'm not a f…

It only takes you three hours if you don't pay someone else to write it for you and provide you with a written brief about how it works, which is what I suspect some candidates must do.

Re: An invisible desktop application that will help you pass technical interviews

#230

Great job on further eroding the trust from a prospective employer. Require a formal degree in CS? That's gatekeeping. Need to pass a whiteboard exam? Not representative of the actual work. Live coding session? Biased against people who don't perform well under pressure. Take home project? It's too much work to do for free. Showcase a personal portfolio? Not fair to people with families or other obligations. Either y…

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