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A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

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Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#221

Post by ponderings »

We have lots of smooth infrastructure that I never noticed until various foreign experts on the internet expressed how wonderful it is.

There is an actual traffic light design I really like. It has a circle of small white leds that switch off one by one as a count down to green

https://www.maxvandaag.nl/sessies/themas/reizen-verkeer/hoe-...

These are absolutely wonderful on busy roads with tons of (car) traffic. Before they had the count down one would just stand there waiting for what seems forever. It can go green any moment, you have to pay attention. The entire state of mind is different. You can just zone out. I even pull out my phone knowing I have time to answer a message or look up at what time a store closes.

I just learn I've only seen the highly predictable ones, apparently in other locations they also have heat sensors to detect how many cyclists are standing there. It may speed up if there are enough. If 1% of the cyclists know what is really going on it would be a lot. Until now I was just happy it turns green when I'm the only traffic for as far as the eye can see.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#222

Post by ben-schaaf »

mattlondon wrote: post #161
globular-toast wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem in the UK is a deep cultural one. First we have to understand that, all things being equal, cars "win" by default on the roads. They are bigger, heavier, faster and more powerful (thanks to burning fossil fuels), and the operators are more reckless and inconsiderate due to being shielded from the outside world. That means their presence on the roads automatically makes it more dangerous and unpleasant for…

The roads are paid for in a large part by road taxes and fuel taxes. Cyclists pay zero towards it in direct taxation, apart from general taxation that everyone pays anyway. Why should cyclists be able to free load off of infrastructure paid for by tax-paying vehicles, and dictate that they are built to favour cyclists when they are not contributing a single penny? Also your point about being "near" is kinda ridiculou…

I always find this argument really funny because I wholeheartedly agree that taxes should be relative to the usage/damage of roads. But when you actually look at the numbers pretty much anywhere in the world it's always the cars and trucks being subsidised by the rest of the population.

YES, PLEASE let me pay for only bicycle infrastructure, I hate having to pay for your car.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#223

Post by crote »

openrisk wrote: post #19

The article points out very nicely that it is expensive (in space terms) to have cars integrate safely with the pedestrian and bicycle traffic of dense urban areas. The mismatch in size and speed requires buffer zones that must be dedicated to this function only.

On the other hand, the reduction in cars due to people switching to cycling makes the infrastructure incredibly cheap.

Look at the video in [0]: how much space would you need if every single cyclist was driving a large SUV? Look how smooth the traffic flows through the intersection, how many flyovers would you need to achieve this with cars?

Yes, cycle infrastructure does indeed take up a nonzero amount of space. But it easily pays for itself by reducing the need for far more space-consuming car infrastructure.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RQrKP9a0XE

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#224

Post by crote »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #211

The notch for the cycle path is actually really interesting to me in that it allows a single car to wait without blocking the flow of the road they are departing. I imagine a lot of RL taillights get clipped but that’s fine at the end of the day.

That pretty much never happens. The vast majority of cars just aren't big enough to stick out, and people generally have enough self-preservation to not drive at full speed into a full-sized box truck.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#225

Post by giraffe_lady »

openrisk wrote: post #19

The article points out very nicely that it is expensive (in space terms) to have cars integrate safely with the pedestrian and bicycle traffic of dense urban areas. The mismatch in size and speed requires buffer zones that must be dedicated to this function only.

A bidirectional bike lane takes about as much space as one lane of on-street car parking, which american cities have plenty of. Swap half the parking to bike lanes and that gets you most of the way there.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#226

Post by yohannparis »

snakeyjake wrote: post #195
isoprophlex wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having recently read "Amerikanen Lopen Niet" (Americans Don't Walk), the power dynamic you describe seems to be entirely real. Because a car is essential for economic survival in the USA, it's probably difficult for some to accept alternate realities from the status quo.

Americans will never walk. Where I live, today's high temperature is lower than the low temperature in Amsterdam. In August the average low temperature is higher than the average high temperature in Amsterdam. Nobody, not even the hardiest Dutchman is going to walk or cycle when it is 27C at midnight in the summer and 0C at the warmest in the winter with four months of "Amsterdam weather" sprinkled between summer and…

I biked year round for 4 years in Washington DC. Biking by 40ºC and in the snow in the winter wasn't difficult.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#227

Post by Paianni »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #156
globular-toast wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem in the UK is a deep cultural one. First we have to understand that, all things being equal, cars "win" by default on the roads. They are bigger, heavier, faster and more powerful (thanks to burning fossil fuels), and the operators are more reckless and inconsiderate due to being shielded from the outside world. That means their presence on the roads automatically makes it more dangerous and unpleasant for…

> See, for example, dual carriageways. Technically everyone has a right to use them by any means (they have paid for it, after all), but you'd be crazy to walk/cycle down one. I regularly cycle along the dual carriageway part of the A370. Whilst I get that it can be unnerving for most cyclists, dual carriageways are well designed for cycling along as they typically have great visibility (drivers can see you from a di…

Dual carriageways are ok for cycling when the AADT for a particular road is below about 30k. Above that, cyclists would be an impediment to traffic flow as a following motorist would be waiting a long time for a safe gap in the second lane to overtake, especially when the speed difference is above 100%.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#228

Post by ben-schaaf »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #137
throw310822 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you mean the Dutch style cycle lanes: in that case, it's just tourists that risk impact with bikes, simply because they're conditioned to ignore them (i.e. the brain is trained to consider dangerous only what's beyond the curb). After a few weeks people just learn to be mindful of bicycles and bicycle lanes as they are normally mindful of roads. In particular, one learns to never change direction suddenly…

I guess this conditioning just doesn't happen in Taipei .. I guess then I don't really understand why the sidewalk and bikelane are on the same level at all. Why not have an actual barrier or curb and places to get on/off? it's effectively another road - with the same dangers as a car-road. But it's just some painted asphalt

> Why not have an actual barrier or curb and places to get on/off?

There actually commonly is a barrier; a gentle curve between the foot path and bike path, with the bike path being lower. The bike path is also red asphalt making it visually distinct.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#229

Post by snakeyjake »

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #213
snakeyjake wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans will never walk. Where I live, today's high temperature is lower than the low temperature in Amsterdam. In August the average low temperature is higher than the average high temperature in Amsterdam. Nobody, not even the hardiest Dutchman is going to walk or cycle when it is 27C at midnight in the summer and 0C at the warmest in the winter with four months of "Amsterdam weather" sprinkled between summer and…

55% of NYC residents do not own a car. But of course everybody knows NYC is not America :) https://www.titlemax.com/discovery-center/u-s-cities-with-th...

New York City and its surrounding combined statistical metropolitan area (which includes semi-rural commuter suburbs where people do not walk) makes up approximately 6% of "America" and was accounted for in the average "royal we" American who does not, statistically, walk.

Re: A common urban intersection in the Netherlands (2018)

#230

Post by com »

zelos wrote: post #162
anentropic wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it really strikes me when reading the OP article that this is what a country that's "got it's shit together" looks like... OTOH I did wonder how feasible it is to transfer such a well-designed system to UK towns and cities where it seems like available space would be too cramped to recreate all those nice features though

The Netherlands really does a great job on infrastructure. It's not like they're even particularly anti-car: driving there is a pretty decent experience too. It's extremely depressing driving onto the ferry in Hook of Holland and then driving off at Harwich.

I’ve always thought of the Netherlands as Infrastructire Country, so much of that territory has been significantly altered over the last four or five thousand years that it’s leaked into their world view.

Problems can be solved with enough time, rough consensus and effort. It seems like such a weirdly outdated modernist view when living in other places.

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