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Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

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Re: Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

#221
post #219
post #4

Every new search engine I've seen was a Bing wrapper with sometimes light reranking. I understand that competing with Google was borderline impossible a decade ago. But in 2024, we have cheap compute, great OSS distributed DBs, powerful new vector search tech. Amateur search engines like Marginalia even run on consumer hardware. CommonCrawl text-only is ~100TB, and can fit on my home server. Why is no company buildin…

Even ChatGPT Search was revealed to be a Bing wrapper, this meme summed it up - https://ibb.co/8csc3gv

Because the hard part isn't the compute, vector dbs, or whatever. It's the huge evergreen index of the whole internet. Getting over the hump of "every site lets your crawler work, gives good results to it, and bypass paywalls" is a massive barrier.

Re: Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

#222
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My purpose is Search, and I want one right tool for it. I have had one right tool for my entire life - first Google, and then StartPage since ~2017. I considered Kagi. I like the concept, and I'm willing to pay for search, but Kagi costs more than I'm willing to pay.

FWIW, kagi uses bing under the hood.

I don't think Kagi uses bing anymore: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36530936

Re: Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

#223

I'm beginning to suspect LLMs' viability for search purposes is dependent on your existing search habits. 40% of my search queries are just copy-pasted error messages. Another 10% are business names, for the sole purpose of finding their hours or phone number. Less than 10% are complete clauses or sentences. I just don't see how an LLM fits my search habits. I tried using ChatGPT for search purposes, and it was dread…

Similar experience. Whenever I have questions where I know what answer should be (i.e. errors, how to do something etc, ELI5) I will use LLMs. When I use google now I almost never use the AI overview because I am almost exclusively trying to discover something that I want from a source. There's also a whole interesting category of search called navigational queries where there is low entropy (and thus ad value) when someone just goes to google to search espn.com, because they will almost always not explore. I do not understand why people would use perplexity or anything over just chatgpt,claude etc unless some price thing - because it occupies this middle latent space of search I don't find useful.

Re: Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite. The part of the crowd that has site:old.reddit.com in their muscle memory has to be the premium end of the search market. Sure, garbage tier searches will be done LLM style. But few smart people might be bored with that, and pay for something better.

The audacity of power users assuming they're the majority

Parent comment makes no assumption that they are the majority. But a minority of users (probably hacker types) who search with boolean operators and keywords instead of typing full sentences do indeed represent a portion of the market willing to pay $$$. These users crave a search engine which returns what they searched for, not what the provider's black box algorithm comes up with.

GNU/Linux as a desktop OS is an example of this market. 95%+ of people will work with Windows or MacOS their whole career which fits their use case perfectly. But the 5% of powerusers who choose Linux gain so much productivity and professional value that it's a thriving ecosystem with plenty of lucrative businesses built around it.

Re: Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

#226

I'm beginning to suspect LLMs' viability for search purposes is dependent on your existing search habits. 40% of my search queries are just copy-pasted error messages. Another 10% are business names, for the sole purpose of finding their hours or phone number. Less than 10% are complete clauses or sentences. I just don't see how an LLM fits my search habits. I tried using ChatGPT for search purposes, and it was dread…

I have never typed a complete sentence into Google and am still very satisfied with the quality of Google search.

But... your comment made me realize, a good use of LLMs with search would be not to ask them directly, but to use them as a front: detect what the user wants and devise the perfect Google search to find it.

LLMs should be very good at discriminating between a plain error message, a business name, or a general open question, building an excellent Google search for it, and parse and interpret the results.

It seems that's what Perplexity is doing, mostly. Personally I find it slower and more cumbersome than using Google Search directly, but maybe that's the direction we're all going. Machines to help us use machines.

Re: Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

#227
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not directly related except by the fact that the dynamic is the same and that it is a repeat of the previous attempt. There are 2 clear things that is so common in Europe: Politics injecting a shit load of public money thinking that if you give the money you will be able to reproduce American company success and co. In the end, the money is wasted for their own interest by big groups, intermediaries, and opport…

Tbf, it's not like this approach can't work at all. Airbus was born out of a similar dynamic, and it's giving Boeing a run for its money now. Afaik France has a couple of other giants in technology-heavy industries such as shipping or mining, but I couldn't speak to their success. What seems clear by now, though, is that the approach isn't suitable for "tech" (in the typical SV sense of the word), especially consumer…

Airbus was a company setup by consolidating companies controlled by some of the most powerful countries in the world, which sold planes to captive state airlines and militaries controlled by those same governments and their allies.

What an insane comparison.

Re: Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

#228
post #4

Every new search engine I've seen was a Bing wrapper with sometimes light reranking. I understand that competing with Google was borderline impossible a decade ago. But in 2024, we have cheap compute, great OSS distributed DBs, powerful new vector search tech. Amateur search engines like Marginalia even run on consumer hardware. CommonCrawl text-only is ~100TB, and can fit on my home server. Why is no company buildin…

To properly compete with Google search you have to: 1. Create your own index/crawl and true search engine on top of it, rather than delegating that back to bing or Google. In doing so, solve or address all the related problems like SEO/spam, and cover the “long tail” (expensive part) 2. Monetize it somehow to afford all of the personnel/hardware/software costs. Probably with your own version of Google’s ad products.…

Imo you need to do all of this, plus be compelling different. Nobody is going to beat Google playing Google's game.

Re: Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

#229
post #51
post #4

Every new search engine I've seen was a Bing wrapper with sometimes light reranking. I understand that competing with Google was borderline impossible a decade ago. But in 2024, we have cheap compute, great OSS distributed DBs, powerful new vector search tech. Amateur search engines like Marginalia even run on consumer hardware. CommonCrawl text-only is ~100TB, and can fit on my home server. Why is no company buildin…

>competing with Google was borderline impossible a decade ago. But in 2024, we have cheap compute, great OSS distributed DBs, powerful new vector search tech. [...] CommonCrawl text-only is ~100TB, Those example 3 bullet points of today's improved 2024 computing power you list isn't even enough to process Google's scale 14 years ago in 2010 when the search index was 100+ petabytes : https://googleblog.blogspot.com/20…

The article you linked doesn't say anything about 100 petabytes

Re: Two upstart search engines are teaming up to take on Google

#230

I'm beginning to suspect LLMs' viability for search purposes is dependent on your existing search habits. 40% of my search queries are just copy-pasted error messages. Another 10% are business names, for the sole purpose of finding their hours or phone number. Less than 10% are complete clauses or sentences. I just don't see how an LLM fits my search habits. I tried using ChatGPT for search purposes, and it was dread…

It's another tool. Learn to use it, and learn when it shouldn't be used.

Google abandoned the ability to use most search qualifiers effectively, so for niche websites I'll get zero results even with perfect exact-string-match queries, even when the site is in Google's index. On the other hand if I only vaguely remember the content and no related words or synonyms, Google is unable to turn my fuzzy feelings into an accurate search result. Plus, your ability to filter the "kind" of site is basically non-existent, making it all but impossible to find information on topics vaguely related to any word vaguely related a product you could potentially buy.

LLMs hallucinate and have their own set of problems, but that orthogonality makes them very useful situationally.

Not too long ago I needed to track down the blog Google references internally in the design doc of their TGIF employee voting platform, regarding Wilson scoring (using confidence intervals instead of means/medians/...). That's very easy to do in Google search if you can remember the right keywords from a decade ago (like Wilson scoring), but otherwise it's impossible. Reframing that problem for an LLM, you'd use plain English to describe everything you know, add a bit of flattery to shift the output distribution to that corner of the internet which actually knows what you're asking, potentially add one sentence to stop this last batch of models from wasting their time actually searching the web, and ask for a list of the top 5 authors and blog titles they think might be correct. That gives you a whole new set of search terms to finish your quest (in my case, the right answer was always in that list of 5, no matter how many times I reran the query).

That property of having to add additional context (e.g., when asking for recipes, I'll describe the background of who the LLM is roleplaying first) to get a good result is annoying. Full sentences with proper punctuation, unfortunately, also help. I wrote a small tool to make it easier for me to keep track of prompts I found useful and execute them with modifications.

As some other commenters mention, the LLM can help you with XY problems. You're searching for recipes, techniques, nutrition spreadsheets, ..., trying to craft something that meets some set of constraints (e.g., for some hypothetical set of guests you might require: no pork, most dishes have to be vegetarian, most dishes have to be gluten-free, it's fine if cooks all day so long as that isn't active prep time, you'd prefer to make it as tasty as possible while leaning in to cheaper, homestyle cooking, it has to use these red bell peppers I have already, and nutrition doesn't really matter). That's a nontrivial collection of tasks with a proper search engine, almost all of which the LLM is piss-poor at individually, unless you already have a good idea of the kind of dish you want to make. However, if you in two phases ask the LLM to brainstorm a list of 20 meal ideas and then expand on your favorite (that would be a decent time to add any modifications) then that collection of tasks gets done all at once. You _have_ to be able to look at the recipe and decide if it's any good or not, so a beginner probably shouldn't do that, but for everyone else it's a huge time saver.

I mentioned that Google sucks at filtering the "kind" of website you'd like to visit. LLMs handle that great. Like always, you have to be able to handle hallucinations (in this case, by just going to the results and checking if they're any good), but consider a prompt like the following:

> The web nowadays has tons of ad-infested, profit-driven, barely legible SEO drivel -- even in the top 100 search results and even from huge sites -- but all the old websites like Sheldon Brown's wealth of bicycle knowledge are still out there. List the top three old-web resources I'd want to read to learn about grafting apple trees.

When I ran that, I got one commercial result, one journal with a wealth of paywalled information, and one forum with a huge collection of free information about the particular species of Apple I'm interested in.

For "apple grafting" in particular, Google does just fine (a bit better arguably since the 1st Google result was the 2nd LLM result, and it's the only one I really cared about), but the more commercialized the knowledge you're looking for is the more the LLM shines out in comparison.

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