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The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

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Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#221

Post by majikaja »

majikaja wrote: post #220
majikaja wrote: post #218

What is there to integrate into? Adult life is mostly just going to work to pay the bills. I don't know anyone with a particularly interesting life outside of their job. Most Japanese people aren't going to be any less apathetic about a foreigner than others of their own group. Naturally there will be more traction with those looking for free English teachers and gaijin hunters. What a larger proportion of people lik…

If you want to be respected (but not 'integrate') as a foreigner by traditional society in Japan it's good to work at a prestigious place where there are few Japanese people such as an embassy. Failing that a gaishikei company that sounds foreign to people who don't know better but isn't (likely >90% Japanese). Or just be rich (this may also involve being very picky or completely averse to working with the native pop…

I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed if they go to Japan expecting the same social structures they enjoyed in the west to exist in the same form, just hidden somewhere behind the language barrier.

Don't even expect the drinks after work culture, a lot of that has disappeared. It was a thing when people actually had hopes that showing loyalty to a company would improve their lives.

If you want to enjoy life just watch videos of expats chilling in places Thailand for inspiration. Otherwise you may become like the Japanese people and end up bored and wanting to leave.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#222

Post by [deleted] »

majikaja wrote: post #221
majikaja wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to be respected (but not 'integrate') as a foreigner by traditional society in Japan it's good to work at a prestigious place where there are few Japanese people such as an embassy. Failing that a gaishikei company that sounds foreign to people who don't know better but isn't (likely >90% Japanese). Or just be rich (this may also involve being very picky or completely averse to working with the native pop…

I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed if they go to Japan expecting the same social structures they enjoyed in the west to exist in the same form, just hidden somewhere behind the language barrier. Don't even expect the drinks after work culture, a lot of that has disappeared. It was a thing when people actually had hopes that showing loyalty to a company would improve their lives. If you want to enjoy…

[deleted]

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#223

Post by PlattypusRex »

famahar wrote: post #206
germandiago wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were talking about integration. If you are happy more or less ghettoing yourself that is right. But we were talking about being accepted. It os really difficult to be accepted in japanese circles as one more. But it is not the case, for example, in Spain in comparison. I was not talking about having the apprpval of others. I do not really care. But in order to get integrated there are cultures that are really flex…

All it takes is speaking the language fluently. Hard but this mystery behind integration isn't complex. So much of the culture is expressed through language. Sound native and you will be treated as native (for better and worse)

There's plenty of small businesses in Japan that straight-up ask you to leave at the door if you look foreign, despite being fluent.

A lot of landlords refuse to rent to any non-Japanese people, despite being fluent.

A xenophobic society won't even let you participate fully, much less integrate, no matter how well you speak the language.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#224

Post by watwut »

germandiago wrote: post #219
watwut wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people "think" affects how they act behind your back. Whether they tell you all the information you need or the bare minimum. Whether you get to be picked up for a project or not in situation where there are multiple competing people. Whether you get invited and can become member of an in-group. Basically, what people euphemism away here is "you get to be slightly discriminated against". In the USA situation, we…

I know it sounds bad but as long as it is private stuff you cannot choose what people prefer whether that is discrimination or not. In fact, if someone does not want me somewhere, I would not need to stay there to like them. Also, how do you know it is always discrimination? Sometimes it might be but sometimes maybe no. It is a problem without a good solution that I think trying to solve brings further trouble (in th…

I am saying it is a thing that exists and it is completely valid to mention it, talk about or complain about it. I am saying the trying to pretend it does not exist or is not something that affects people is just ... lying to yourself and others.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#225

Post by _smfg »

famahar wrote: post #129
germandiago wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a couple of times in Japan, have some Japanese friends here in Vietnam, where I live. I am spanish. In my humble opinion, japanese society is very kind and well-behaved, but, if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out. And anyway, you will never be a japanese. I mean, there is much less difference between foreign…

This strong need to be accepted by a whole country is something I see mentioned a lot by a particular group of people that have never really been "othered" in their life. Coming to Japan is quite a shock for them because they experience being a minority for the first time in their lives. I was born in Canada and have dealt with micro-aggresions and blatant racism my whole life there. Living in Japan I can say I feel…

strikingly good observation, as another minority Canadian

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#226

Post by enteeentee »

autumnstwilight wrote: post #174
famahar wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strong need to be accepted by a whole country is something I see mentioned a lot by a particular group of people that have never really been "othered" in their life. Coming to Japan is quite a shock for them because they experience being a minority for the first time in their lives. I was born in Canada and have dealt with micro-aggresions and blatant racism my whole life there. Living in Japan I can say I feel…

I don't really get why people always say "no matter how long you live in Japan, Japanese people will never truly see you as Japanese." Yeah, okay, but also no matter how long I live in Japan, telling other people from my home country that I'm Japanese now would seem kinda ridiculous and probably not be taken seriously. I don't think of myself as "Japanese". Seems odd to single out Japanese people as uniquely discrimi…

“No matter how long you live in Japan… “ bit more like even if you are born in Japan with a non-Japanese heritage you will never be Japanese.

There are people born in Japan, raised in Japan that aren’t considered ok Japanese. Some don’t consider themselves Japanese because that’s the cultural norm.

Many other people in other countries would consider themselves a citizen of that country if born there. Japan is different.

https://youtu.be/oLt5qSm9U80

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#227

Post by throaway915 »

nayuki wrote: post #140
Shawnj2 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s interesting that there are signs etc. entirely in English in Japan though

Which interestingly is illegal in Montreal / Quebec in Canada. (Signs must contain French text and the French text must be no smaller than other languages.)

Illegal in more Canadian jurisdictions than just Quebec

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#228

Post by Smar »

tomcam wrote: post #87
ekusiadadus wrote: post #86

I'm Japanese. Speaking English in Japan is very challenging. All my friends and family speak Japanese, and everything from social media to news is completely accessible in Japanese. I'm an entrepreneur, and I use English when talking with international clients and overseas VCs. However, I lack confidence, and the communication tends to remain superficial, making it difficult to effectively do business internationally…

Your written English is excellent. You are underestimating your skills, I think. Is there a world in which you could simply pause and plan out your words before speaking? Westerners won’t mind. Elon Musk often pauses noticeably in interviews when he’s discussing something controversial or novel, for example. I retrained myself how to speak in my 20s and went through a similar process.

Spoken English is completely different language from written English. Even more so with native speakers.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#229

Post by shiroiushi »

mike50 wrote: post #167
SpecialistK wrote: post #65

I only speak English, but I have found and theorized that one's ability to learn and retain a L2 is heavily affected by your society's "need" to communicate outside of the national language. This article largely reinforces that theory. If people do not have a need to learn another language, it becomes an uphill battle. People in Finland report higher levels of English competency than people in France (despite French…

French is widely spoken throughout the world. If you speak French you can travel to Canada, the Caribbean, Africa and parts of South America without needing to speak another language. Also French is an official language in Belgium, Switzerland and Luxembourg as well as being widely spoken and taught as a second language in contentental Europe. Japan is spoken mostly in Japan and expat communities.

I think you're greatly overstating the usefulness of French; I've noticed that French-speaking people seem to have this misconception about the importance of their language, not grasping that it's no longer the late 1800s or early 1900s. French is only widely spoken in former French colonies, which are all generally economic backwaters (which probably has a lot to do with how poorly France treated its colonies). I'm not aware of any significant parts of South America where you can speak French, outside French Guyana: anywhere else, and you need to speak Spanish or Portuguese, though you might be able to get by with English just due to its popularity as an international language (which French is not).

French might be "official" in Belgium and Switzerland, but that's about as useful as it also being "official" in Canada. Good luck speaking French to people in British Columbia or Alberta; only people in Quebec speak it. The same is largely true in Belgium or Switzerland: go outside the French-speaking area and you're going to have trouble. Luxembourg is a micronation.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#230

Post by germandiago »

watwut wrote: post #224
germandiago wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it sounds bad but as long as it is private stuff you cannot choose what people prefer whether that is discrimination or not. In fact, if someone does not want me somewhere, I would not need to stay there to like them. Also, how do you know it is always discrimination? Sometimes it might be but sometimes maybe no. It is a problem without a good solution that I think trying to solve brings further trouble (in th…

I am saying it is a thing that exists and it is completely valid to mention it, talk about or complain about it. I am saying the trying to pretend it does not exist or is not something that affects people is just ... lying to yourself and others.

Yes, I agree. I feel there are comments here from people saying that Japan is great and no problem just because they feel comfortable there but the deep reality is more like your comments IMHO.

Some people might be comfortable like that and it is ok, but that is not what I would call being integrated. I would call it being tolerated.

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