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Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

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Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#221

Post by johnnyanmac »

FredPret wrote: post #215
johnnyanmac wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it does, but the damage isn't proportional to job seekers and there can even be malicious incentives to do this. That should be punished and discouraged. We've seen for a long time now that companies will put up with a lot of inefficiencies for various other bottom lines.

That’s true - it’s not in proportion. But how do you punish this without making it even worse in some other way? Much of the current situation stems from fairness-minded regulations forcing companies to post jobs they already have a candidate for, wasting everybody’s time.

I guess our opinion will vary on "worse", but the worst case for a job seeker is less jobs to click on. I don't see that as worse than applying to a bunch of jobs thst don't exist or are otherwise exploiting the idea of a job posting.

>Much of the current situation stems from fairness-minded regulations forcing companies to post jobs they already have a candidate for, wasting everybody’s time.

Yes, I do believe we should repeal those regulations. Someone who wants to hire a friend of family member will figure out how to do it.

H1bs are a more complex matter. They should ironically enough strengthen those so an H1b isn't held hostage by an employer who can lay them off on thr drop of a hat. They should have more protections as they are a sponsored guest and not yet an American citizen.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#222

Post by EasyMark »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #62
zero-sharp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea this is a weird one. Some job applications actually require me to fill in reference contact information. I can't submit the application without that detail. Of course, I try to skirt it. Is this normal?

I don't think I've ever encountered that in the U.S.

It’s kind of rare but it happens, I’ve definitely seen it AND been asked up front. I tell them that I don’t “burn” my references on any jobs except those I’m pretty sure I have a great chance and after some interviewing has happened.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#223

Post by nickff »

volkk wrote: post #213
nickff wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an individual who works at a small company, and going through ineligible applications takes away from time I could spend with children or family. I am not an HR professional, but we don't have a massive staff to delegate these matters to. The situations are morally equivalent.

do you do this outside of work hours? sounds more like a failure on how the company operates than the nature of the problem. taking a wild guess that if it weren't for combing through through applications, then those extra hours spent on mindless HR stuff would simply be filled with other work.

It doesn’t matter when you waste someone’s time; work hours are fungible for most professionals. Your ‘wild guess’ seems very convenient with respect to your previous comment, and happens to be incorrect.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#224

Post by wood_spirit »

dang wrote: post #217
wood_spirit wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bigger, longer term thought, but… perhaps upvotes and downvotes can be subtly weighed by karma? This would give proven contributors more trust. In the case of job posts, it would enlist them in zapping the spam they recognise month after month? And beyond that, beyond applicability to job posts, perhaps voting can be a collaborative filtering bubble instead of absolutes? This makes spammers and voting rings…

We've experimented with vote weighting over the years but the results have been disappointing. It's not easy to come up with criteria for users whose votes are more reliable.

It’s easy to imagine a dozen ways to weigh things and they can’t all be right…

So perhaps recruit some small group of math minded HNers and see what insights and ideas they wring from access to the fully voting history?

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#225

Post by drillsteps5 »

gaws wrote: post #80
DebtDeflation wrote: post #28

Many companies have policies requiring that all jobs have to be posted both internally and externally before being filled. The intent is to prevent Sam the VP from just slotting his buddy into the job. At the end of the day, Sam the VP is just going to slot his buddy into the job but now you made a whole bunch of people apply for a job that was never available to them. Same thing happens with H1B/PERM, except now it'…

> At the end of the day, Sam the VP is just going to slot his buddy into the job but now you made a whole bunch of people apply for a job that was never available to them. Nowadays, in tech, it's all about who you know rather than what you know.

This has been true in any area of human activity since forever. If you have a choice to work with someone you know/worked with previously and someone completely new, who may or may not be as good as advertised... Who would you hire? When your future bonuses/promotions and maybe job itself depends on it?

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#226

Post by drillsteps5 »

DebtDeflation wrote: post #28

Many companies have policies requiring that all jobs have to be posted both internally and externally before being filled. The intent is to prevent Sam the VP from just slotting his buddy into the job. At the end of the day, Sam the VP is just going to slot his buddy into the job but now you made a whole bunch of people apply for a job that was never available to them. Same thing happens with H1B/PERM, except now it'…

> Sam the VP is just going to slot his buddy into the job but now you made a whole bunch of people apply for a job that was never available to them.

...except now the recruiting and HR can report these candidates and interviews on their metrics, candidates had a hope of finding a job, and Sam has a bulletproof explanation in case if anybody asks why his buddy was hired. Win-win-win.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#227

Post by drillsteps5 »

zero-sharp wrote: post #142
joe_the_user wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done tech interviewing for years. Job listing that are to various degree fake are quite common. Of course, fakeness comes in many flavor, from listings posted just to "see if there's anyone out there" (I had a boss who did this regularly) to jobs a supervisor really does want to fill but which they know they won't because the bureaucracy has forced impossible requirements on them. An example: "Junior programmer,…

This is another personal anecdote, but I had an interview earlier this year for a database related role. The job ad had a huge salary range and the interview had nothing to do with the role. I wasn't asked any behavioral or technical questions. The two people on the call just wanted to get to know me. We probably spent several minutes talking about sports. A few days later I got rejected. What the hell?

One of the reasons might be that you belong to a protected category (by gender, age, race, etc). These interviews are sometimes referred to as "compliance interviews". These candidates will be reported on the HR diversity metrics to prove that the company made an effort to reach out to diverse candidates (even though no actual effort was made). A few companies (Wells Fargo I believe was one) were fined by the Feds for these practices.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#228

Post by drillsteps5 »

de6u99er wrote: post #70

What a colossal waste of everybody's time. I wonder how demoralizing this must be on HR workers, having to post a job, screen CV's, trying to stay professional while knowing that the hiring manager actually doesn't care, having to constantly put people with hopes off, and ultimately let people feel they are not good enough just because some C-hole wants to bring in his buddy who's most likely not half as competent as…

Recruiting (which is typically part of HR) lives and dies by the need to search for candidates for open positions. No open positions - they're out of a job. So I very much doubt they feel bad doing the job they were hired to do.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#229

Post by ThalesX »

Buttons840 wrote: post #7

On this topic, do y'all think the HN Who's Hiring thread has ghost jobs? I know I've applied to one and never had back (a few years ago).

Last I applied to a job posted on Who's Hiring, they had me fill a self recorded video interview on some platform. And do some coding exercise with screen sharing. Then send it to them. I've never gotten any sort of reply back, positive or negative. Felt like a clown. Won't be using that again.
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