Jaywalking legalized in New York City • Hacker News Board

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#221

Post by ssl-3 » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:08 PM UTC

nomel wrote: post #215

ssl-3 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An “intersection” is the area embraced within the prolongation of the lateral curb lines, or, if none, then the lateral boundary lines of the roadways, of two highways which join one another at approximately right angles or the area within which vehicles traveling upon different highways joining at any other angle may come in conflict. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

My question was specifically about the "adjacent" part of "adjacent intersections". That link explains "intersections". What does it mean when those are "adjacent"?

Aye. I can't find that part spelled out anywhere for CA. (There's probably case law on the topic, but IANAL.)

My lay interpretation is, I think, the same as yours: In order to avoid doing illegal things, one would have to walk a mile to cross the road in your example.

And as a lay jaywalker: I'm absolutely certain that I would never do that; I'd simply cross the road when when it was safe to do so. (I'd also like to hope that I would have the time, money, and opportunity to have a turn in front of a judge for any resulting citation because this kind of result is absolute horseshit.)

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#222

Post by mywittyname » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:10 PM UTC

maxwellg wrote: post #201

jklinger410 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crosswalks at intersections are nearly obsolete due to the thick A-pillars in modern cars. What?

A-pillars are the pillars of a car that support the windshield and the front of the roof. They've gotten bigger in recent years - which reduces the visibility of pedestrians, cyclists, and other cars. Drivers can't see through pillars. Big pillars are safer for the driver in case of a collision or a rollover, but paradoxically also makes that car more dangerous for everyone else on the road. I don't think they make c…

Your citation blames the size of vehicles for the increase in danger, not A pillars specifically. And the demonstration was how many children could be sitting in front of a pickup truck before the driver could see them.

> “They are larger, heavier and higher up from the road than smaller cars and create blind spots that make it challenging for drivers to see vulnerable road users like pedestrians and cyclists,”

I drive a car with enormous A pillars (coupe version of a convertible) and never have issues seeing the children playing in the street because of it. Likely because most 8 year olds would be at eye level with me.

A modern F150 however, an entire car could be obscured by the long, high hood of those.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#223

Post by mysterydip » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:17 PM UTC

bitcharmer wrote: post #135

mysterydip wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Population density of London: 15,000 per square mile Population density of Manhattan: 78,000 per square mile (according to wikipedia on both)

This comparison makes no sense. If this was in good faith, you'd compare Manhattan and the square mile or westminster.

It was in good faith. Not knowing much about the UK, I took the largest city to be the densest. Seems I was off.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#224

Post by mywittyname » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:20 PM UTC

jklinger410 wrote: post #213

maxwellg wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A-pillars are the pillars of a car that support the windshield and the front of the roof. They've gotten bigger in recent years - which reduces the visibility of pedestrians, cyclists, and other cars. Drivers can't see through pillars. Big pillars are safer for the driver in case of a collision or a rollover, but paradoxically also makes that car more dangerous for everyone else on the road. I don't think they make c…

Yeah okay, I understand pedestrian visibility. But cross walks have nothing to do with that really? Like it's a place where you (usually) stop and when you are stopped, pedestrians can go. I don't see how jaywalking would be better than a dedicated place where pedestrians are expected to be. Thick a-frames or not.

> But cross walks have nothing to do with that really?

The posted article mentioned accidents specifically at cross walks.

> The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety found that drivers of SUVs, pickups, vans, and minivans are “substantially more likely” than car drivers to hit pedestrians when making turns,

The reasoning though is mainly speculation. I've found that minivans offer exceptional visibility. So it could be as simple as people who buy SUVs, minivans, and pickups are just worse drivers than those in coupes and sedans.

My theory is that people just don't consider pedestrians when making left turns at intersections with cross walks. Instead, they focus on oncoming traffic and commit to a turn before looking at where they are going.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#225

Post by macintux » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:21 PM UTC

Schiendelman wrote: post #208

throwaway313373 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but at intersections drivers are forced to slow down and look for traffic and maybe prepare to make a turn, so you can expect them to move slower and have more situational awareness. Am I wrong?

You should be right! But you are misidentifying the problem. The problem here is not the norm, it's the exceptions. Some drivers don't slow down or pay attention. Those are the ones that cause all the risk. While normal drivers behave better at intersections, a pedestrian can't trust that every driver will do that. In a mid block crossing, you don't have to rely on drivers behaving a certain way, so the predictabilit…

I witnessed a driver make an aggressive left turn as soon as a light turned green, to beat the first car going the other way.

Unfortunately that aggressive left turn ended abruptly when they hit a pedestrian crossing the street on that same green light. Thankfully the pedestrian seemed mostly shaken up, but I have to imagine there were long-term consequences of that.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#226

Post by maxwellg » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:31 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #222

maxwellg wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A-pillars are the pillars of a car that support the windshield and the front of the roof. They've gotten bigger in recent years - which reduces the visibility of pedestrians, cyclists, and other cars. Drivers can't see through pillars. Big pillars are safer for the driver in case of a collision or a rollover, but paradoxically also makes that car more dangerous for everyone else on the road. I don't think they make c…

Your citation blames the size of vehicles for the increase in danger, not A pillars specifically. And the demonstration was how many children could be sitting in front of a pickup truck before the driver could see them. > “They are larger, heavier and higher up from the road than smaller cars and create blind spots that make it challenging for drivers to see vulnerable road users like pedestrians and cyclists,” I dri…

You're right - here's a better source https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/2249 and commentary https://www.autotrader.ca/editorial/20220510/large-forward-b...

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#227

Post by mimischi » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:34 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #164

standardUser wrote: post #108

First, let's not forget that jaywalking is one of those "crimes" that is used as a pretense by police to harass people, usually young people and people of color. Second, as a veteran jaywalker, my rule of thumb is that if a car has to hit their breaks even a little, or otherwise alter their trajectory, you're doing it wrong. The goal should be smooth movement for all. Third, just because someone else is jaywalking do…

Traveling in Germany where there is a culture of biking and walking I found that jaywalking is never the less very much frowned upon by regular people and they see it as a transgression of norms.

As Germans like to say: the rules are the rules!

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#228

Post by lysace » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:35 PM UTC

Schiendelman wrote: post #205

lysace wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current day Sweden: People cross tend to cross the street whenever it feels safe, unless there's some mom/dad with young kids in tow nearby. Then it's polite to wait for the light to turn green. We often have very little traffic on our streets though, and they are often not very wide. It's technically illegal to jaywalk but not punishable unless you manage to cause a traffic accident, somehow. I like these pragmatic…

In the United States, having laws like that results in discriminatory policing (see many threads here). Probably less than an issue in a country that doesn't have such issues with race.

> It's technically illegal to jaywalk but not punishable unless you manage to cause a traffic accident, somehow. I like these pragmatic laws.

Has this been tested?

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#229

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:53 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #167

wahern wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in SF. We just had an accident the other day that indisputably can be pinned on jaywalking--late at night, cross where there was an actual fence, and the car hadn't been speeding. In fact, the limit is 25 there. Jaywalking figures prominently in pedestrian deaths in this city, and it's not simply because of speeding as there simply aren't that many streets where you can go that fast, and in fact in some of the…

On street parking really is the worse as a pedestrian. Yes, you can technically cross at any intersection in Seattle, but cars are parked so close that they won't see you unless you poke your head out. A lot of pedestrian problems could be solved by getting rid of or severely restricting on street parking. Also, drugs are a huge issue. We have a lot of pedestrian/car accidents, something like 70% of them involves con…

[deleted]

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#230

Post by bobthepanda » Wed, Oct 30, 2024, 9:53 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #167

wahern wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in SF. We just had an accident the other day that indisputably can be pinned on jaywalking--late at night, cross where there was an actual fence, and the car hadn't been speeding. In fact, the limit is 25 there. Jaywalking figures prominently in pedestrian deaths in this city, and it's not simply because of speeding as there simply aren't that many streets where you can go that fast, and in fact in some of the…

On street parking really is the worse as a pedestrian. Yes, you can technically cross at any intersection in Seattle, but cars are parked so close that they won't see you unless you poke your head out. A lot of pedestrian problems could be solved by getting rid of or severely restricting on street parking. Also, drugs are a huge issue. We have a lot of pedestrian/car accidents, something like 70% of them involves con…

technically speaking the law is that you can't park 20 feet from an intersection but in practice this is rarely enforced in Seattle. I feel like literally putting up plastic posts and paint blocking the 20 foot zone would do wonders for safety.

it also does not help that people in Seattle love a rolling California stop, which is not legal. Combine that with the baseline level of driver distraction and I have gotten almost hit by inattentive drivers way too much.