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Accountability sinks

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Re: Accountability sinks

#221

Post by InsideOutSanta »

ernst_klim wrote: post #173
InsideOutSanta wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this dysfunction is not a bug, it's the feature. In some ways, it's useful, because it allows positive risk-taking that could not be taken if anyone was actually held (or even just felt) accountable. But at this point, as a society, we've shifted too far towards enabling accountability-free behavior from corporations. I think a good example of the dichotomy here is Starlink. On one hand, it's an incredibly usef…

Sorry but I find your example totally wrong. Things like radio frequencies and space launches are hard regulated by govs, no corporation can launch satellites at will without permission from the government(s).

Doesn't that apply to all companies? They have to follow the laws. Accountability sinks exist orthogonal to that.

Re: Accountability sinks

#222

Post by HighGoldstein »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #218
aziaziazi wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it’s still fine to have a customer service only answering in the official language. The chance are high that a random German speaks english so you’ll probably be good but if that’s not the case, blaming the company seems unfair to me.

>The chance are high that a random German speaks english so you’ll probably be good What does high mean in this context? I experienced what I would call the inverse Danish maneuver, the German obviously understand English because they often answered our English questions correctly - In German. In Denmark if a Dane understands what you said in Danish but you have a definite accent they will often answer your question…

This sounds like a language education issue. It's easier to understand a language than to express yourself in it, so possibly Germans on average have good enough knowledge of English to understand you but not enough to adequately reply in English. Conversely, Denmark has some of the highest English literacy in Europe.

Re: Accountability sinks

#223

Post by carlosjobim »

Dilettante_ wrote: post #193
RandomLensman wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German mail rail and track operator (Deutsche Bahn) isn't private but 100% state owned (and control sits with the federal government). They wanted to privatize it a couple of decades ago but abandoned it. There is still some hybridization between supposedly it being a business and also a public service left in the law, though.

The Deutsche Bahn AG is in fact a private Aktiengesellschaft(which is to say a stock company) with the german gov't owning 100% of the shares. I'd very much argue that it is run mostly like a private enterprise and only occasionally compelled by the government to act like a public service.

It's still the government running the company if they own all the shares. So what's your point?

Re: Accountability sinks

#224

Post by pvillano »

There was a leaked memo essentially instructing to form a committee when you make an illegal decision so that one person cannot be sent to jail. Does anyone remember this? I've had a hard time finding it

Re: Accountability sinks

#225

Post by swayvil »

7952 wrote: post #214
larsrc wrote: post #133

I've long thought that that is one of the main functions of corporations. There's a reason they're called limited liability. The fact that you can conjure up new companies at a whim makes it easy to shuffle responsibility into an obscure corner. This is a strong reason that corporations should not be considered people. People are long-lived entities with accountability and you can't just create or destroy them at wil…

At a more basic level money eliminates the need for social obligation. There is no expectation of reciprocity or mutual respect. You pay for a product, it is delivered and that is the end of it. Corporations do this within their own internal economy or with partner companies. A cost centre pays an amount of money and delegates responsibility.

Enjoying the benefits of living in a society (a degree of trust, no deadly combat, services like police) without suffering its liabilities (mandatory politeness and respect).

It's the profitable course.

Re: Accountability sinks

#226

Post by carlosjobim »

jazzypants wrote: post #137
throwaway48476 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting machines are hacked every year at DEFCONs voting village. They're wildly insecure and no one should trust them. Frankly, any claims of manipulation of voting machines are at worst plausible.

And, yet these companies won their lawsuits, and no wide scale voter fraud was ever found. So, your point is entirely irrelevant.

Winning or loosing a lawsuit doesn't say much about the truth of any matter. Especially when it's a civil suit between corporations, or a criminal suit in a jurisdiction that has plea deals.

Re: Accountability sinks

#227

Post by eru »

sethammons wrote: post #187
eru wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, rebooting is offensive to me as a programmer. Kernel updates and memory leaks are the only reason you need to reboot. How absolutely shitty is modem firmware that the ISP actually spent the time to build this reboot system out??(Never mind that I personally don't feel like I've ever had a modem/isp actually problem solved by rebooting) Why is rebooting offensive to you? State is hard; resetting your system to…

If your microwave had an error, you would be put off if you had to power cycle the whole house. Installed a new receptacle, sure, but operating an appliance? No way. Now you would have to reset your clocks everywhere at a minimum. I have a linux computer running a public server that has not be restarted in three and a half years. This is what I expect. Every time I have to reboot my work laptop due to work pushing so…

> I have a linux computer running a public server that has not be restarted in three and a half years. This is what I expect.

I restart my Linux desktop every few weeks, when the kernel updates.

For a reliable server, you want to exercise the restart ritual somewhat regularly, because when anything goes wrong (eg with the hardware), you might have to restart anyway, so you want to be sure that this works.

Re: Accountability sinks

#228

Post by aziaziazi »

yxhuvud wrote: post #210
jhrmnn wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that’s bad, and a service dealing with train ticket machine failures not available in English isn’t as bad.

Ticket machines are still something foreigners can be expected to interact and need help with.

People visiting a foreign country can still expect to have to interact with local not speaking their language.

Re: Accountability sinks

#229

Post by graemep »

eloisius wrote: post #90
rougka wrote: post #64

I remember experiencing this in one of the German airports/airlines and having that exact thought. It was this fully automated airport, where the checkin is self serviced and you only interact with computers. Eventually, when I inserted my boarding pass I had a printed piece of paper back that said that they had to change my seat from aisle to midseat I then tried to find someone to talk to the entire way, but comput…

I had a similar experience in Germany about a year ago. Train stations are mostly self-service now. The ticket kiosk ate my €50 and promptly rebooted. It didn’t print a receipt or anything. The only human I could find was a security guard. He told me to call the number on a sticker on the machine. The person who answered couldn’t speak English. My €50 is out there somewhere but it would cost me more than that to trac…

I had something similar happen to be on the tube in london. My ticket got demagnetised (combined intercity rail with travel card are/were still magnetic stripe tickets) and there were not staff at the station so I could not get the barrier open to leave.

Re: Accountability sinks

#230

Post by TZubiri »

cj wrote: post #25
lstodd wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

heh never works that way. an experienced bureucrat like you describe always has a shit-deflecting canopy. so whatever decisions he personally took are never attributable to him personally. it just so happened.

what you’re describing is not someone who is accountable for something. In the hiring example, perhaps the person A stops being accountable for hiring someone successful in the role, and rather they are accountable for successfully hiring persons B who is capable of hiring someone to fill the role. Essentially creating an accountability chain. If you want to describe a logical chain of accountability instead as a “ac…

Sure you are a little bit responsible if your hiring manager hires a dud, but not as much. Similarly your hiring manager is not as responsible as the dud, accountability loses power in each chain.

You can fire your hiring manager and pick another one if he fails too often for example

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