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Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

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Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#221

Post by selfmodruntime »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #218
junon wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're intentionally misreading everything people are saying to you.

It's really just you and another Rust fan, there's no need to further discuss this among the three of us. I think I've made it extensively clear - based on the above reasons - that I believe it's a horrible programming language and people using it now will regret it in 10 years or so.

I don‘t think so. The language is not perfect, and if you actually took the time to understand it’s benefits instead of spouting falsehoods, you‘d be able to see its advantages. My employer certainly sees its benefits, as do a lot of Fortune 500 companies right now.

I love C and I have used it for more than a decade, but I wouldn‘t choose it again. The most important thing I save with Rust is time and also my sanity. The very fact that I can trust my code if it compiles and that I don’t have to spend hours in GDB anymore makes it worth my while.

Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#222

Post by jonathanstrange »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #220
jonathanstrange wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not being obtuse at all, I'm using the term exactly in the same way as you use it. By the way, the fact that Rust allows unsafe code by itself is not a problem. Although there are fully memory safe languages, many good languages allow unsafe code. Ada also allows unsafe constructions via pragmas. The problem is that, much unlike Ada programmers, Rust programmers use unsafe code extensively. That's the whole point…

Alright, we’ve arrived at a point where I‘m going to ask you for a source. You‘re being willfully ignorant. I explained that „unsafe“ is not used in the Rust community like you think it is, and that the compiler provides verification of safe Rust types in unsafe blocks. The only times I‘ve used unsafe code is for FFI and very rarely on bare metal machines. A common Rust programmer will never use unsafe. They will use…

It's funny because you provide the source yourself: "[...] 34.35% make a direct function call into another crate that uses the unsafe keyword. [...] Nearly 20% of all crates have at least one instance of the unsafe keyword, a non-trivial number."

That's a lot of unsafe code for an allegedly safe language. Of course, most of it calls into system libraries. I never claimed or insinuated anything to the contrary (except perhaps in your imagination). But if you compare that to typical Ada code, the latter is much safer. Ada programmers try to do more things in Ada, probably because many of them need to write high integrity software.

Anyway, Rust offers nothing of value for me. It's overengineered and the languages I use are already entirely memory safe. Languages are mere tools, if it suits you well, continue using your Rust. No problem for me. By the way, I welcome when people re-write C++ code in Rust. Rust is certainly better than that, but that's a low-hanging fruit!

Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#223

Post by jonathanstrange »

junon wrote: post #219
jonathanstrange wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really just you and another Rust fan, there's no need to further discuss this among the three of us. I think I've made it extensively clear - based on the above reasons - that I believe it's a horrible programming language and people using it now will regret it in 10 years or so.

You're welcome to read the rustnomicon to learn about the topic you're discussing. Having written C and C++ for almost 15 years and doing extensive embedded work with it, I'm very secure in my decision to use Rust. But I'm capable of doing research to learn about it and to be somewhat involved in the development, mostly as an observer, to see both the direction it's moving and the overall process and meticulousness w…

Well, if you come from C++ then Rust might look nice to you. But I come from languages like CommonLisp and Ada, and so Rust just looks like a horrible abomination to me because that's what it is. It's also not surprising. A good programming language simply cannot be designed that fast.

Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#224

Post by ArtixFox »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #223
junon wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're welcome to read the rustnomicon to learn about the topic you're discussing. Having written C and C++ for almost 15 years and doing extensive embedded work with it, I'm very secure in my decision to use Rust. But I'm capable of doing research to learn about it and to be somewhat involved in the development, mostly as an observer, to see both the direction it's moving and the overall process and meticulousness w…

Well, if you come from C++ then Rust might look nice to you. But I come from languages like CommonLisp and Ada, and so Rust just looks like a horrible abomination to me because that's what it is. It's also not surprising. A good programming language simply cannot be designed that fast.

Common Lisp is an amalgamation of every lisp they could find, they slammed it all in. Calling it well designed is funny because every single CL developer openly accepts that its a fucking weird language with hell lot of warts that cannot be polished away.

Ada is fine, just verbose, kinda fun, no comments about it except that its kinda sad how weak their formal verification is. I prefer Frama-C over it. You can compare Ada and rust but ada is horrible, sincerely horrible at working with ownership. Frama-C can run laps around it as you can verify EVEN arbitrary pointer arithmetic.

Calling rust a horrible abomination is weird. As someone who dabbled in CL for an year, I love the fact that it has proc macros and even tho its harder to use it, i can make my own DSLs and make buildtime compilers!!

That opens up a world of possibilities.We can actually have safer and stricter math libraries! Maybe put us back in era of non-electron applications?

The horrible part might be syntax but eh, its a stupid thing to care about.

Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#225

Post by ArtixFox »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #214
selfmodruntime wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Claims to be "safe" but allows arbitrary unsafe code, and it's everywhere. Sigh. This is not true. Not the first part, and especially not the last part. `Unsafe` doesn't allow arbitrary, unsafe code. It resets the compiler to a level where most manually managed languages are all the time . You still have to uphold all guarantees the compiler provides, just manually. That's why Miri exists.

Either it's safe or it's unsafe. If you use the keyword "unsafe" it should definitely not mean "safe" (and it doesn't, but you seem to suggest it).

you said you use Ada, if you use it, you should know that Ada is fundamentally unsafe language with a safe subset called spark.

It could not verify dynamic allocations thats why it has such a huge toolset for working with static allocations.

Frama-C allows you to program in a safe subset of the unsafe language called C.

And these languages are the backbone of everything where lives are at risk. YOu can have a language that allows both unsafe and safe.

Safety is not binary and our trains run C/C++ [BOTH UNSAFE LANGUAGES]

Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#226

Post by [deleted] »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #217
selfmodruntime wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being obtuse. Terms have contexts. It is unsafe in the sense that C++ is unsafe, in that you may cause undefined behavior which can't be entirely checked by the compiler. You're back to what Valgrind/C++ -wall/UBSan provide. "Unchecked" or "Unconfirmed" would've perhaps been better choices, but Rust considers all other manual memory and reference management unsafe, so the word stuck.

I'm not being obtuse at all, I'm using the term exactly in the same way as you use it. By the way, the fact that Rust allows unsafe code by itself is not a problem. Although there are fully memory safe languages, many good languages allow unsafe code. Ada also allows unsafe constructions via pragmas. The problem is that, much unlike Ada programmers, Rust programmers use unsafe code extensively. That's the whole point…

[deleted]

Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#227

Post by ArtixFox »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #222
selfmodruntime wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, we’ve arrived at a point where I‘m going to ask you for a source. You‘re being willfully ignorant. I explained that „unsafe“ is not used in the Rust community like you think it is, and that the compiler provides verification of safe Rust types in unsafe blocks. The only times I‘ve used unsafe code is for FFI and very rarely on bare metal machines. A common Rust programmer will never use unsafe. They will use…

It's funny because you provide the source yourself: "[...] 34.35% make a direct function call into another crate that uses the unsafe keyword. [...] Nearly 20% of all crates have at least one instance of the unsafe keyword, a non-trivial number." That's a lot of unsafe code for an allegedly safe language. Of course, most of it calls into system libraries. I never claimed or insinuated anything to the contrary (except…

Wait just 20% thats a low number damn. You said a lot and i was expecting...idk, 50%?

If Ada was used in domains where rust is used, like desktop applications, servers, high perf stuff, it would also do unsafe stuff you could never verify using spark.

But instead it is used in microcontrollers with runtimes provided by adacore and other vendors. Can you fully know if those pieces of code are 100% verified and safe? the free ones are not. atleast the free x86 one.

How ridiculous. The language you use is not memory safe btw. unchecked_deallocation can be easily used without any pragmas iirc. You need to enable spark_mode which will restrict you to an even smaller subset! You cannot even safely write a doubly linked list in it![you can with great pain in rust] [with less pain in Frama-C] [never tried ats]

Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#228

Post by ArtixFox »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #218
junon wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're intentionally misreading everything people are saying to you.

It's really just you and another Rust fan, there's no need to further discuss this among the three of us. I think I've made it extensively clear - based on the above reasons - that I believe it's a horrible programming language and people using it now will regret it in 10 years or so.

hey, if you just wanna hate a language and feel superior, you are free to. But the things you are saying are stupid.

Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#229

Post by lispm »

ArtixFox wrote: post #224
jonathanstrange wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you come from C++ then Rust might look nice to you. But I come from languages like CommonLisp and Ada, and so Rust just looks like a horrible abomination to me because that's what it is. It's also not surprising. A good programming language simply cannot be designed that fast.

Common Lisp is an amalgamation of every lisp they could find, they slammed it all in. Calling it well designed is funny because every single CL developer openly accepts that its a fucking weird language with hell lot of warts that cannot be polished away. Ada is fine, just verbose, kinda fun, no comments about it except that its kinda sad how weak their formal verification is. I prefer Frama-C over it. You can compar…

> Common Lisp is an amalgamation of every lisp they could find, they slammed it all in.

Not really. It's mostly a modernized version of Zetalisp. In many cases simpler as that, with some added new stuff (like type declarations).

Re: Asterinas: OS kernel written in Rust and providing Linux-compatible ABI

#230

Post by selfmodruntime »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #222
selfmodruntime wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, we’ve arrived at a point where I‘m going to ask you for a source. You‘re being willfully ignorant. I explained that „unsafe“ is not used in the Rust community like you think it is, and that the compiler provides verification of safe Rust types in unsafe blocks. The only times I‘ve used unsafe code is for FFI and very rarely on bare metal machines. A common Rust programmer will never use unsafe. They will use…

It's funny because you provide the source yourself: "[...] 34.35% make a direct function call into another crate that uses the unsafe keyword. [...] Nearly 20% of all crates have at least one instance of the unsafe keyword, a non-trivial number." That's a lot of unsafe code for an allegedly safe language. Of course, most of it calls into system libraries. I never claimed or insinuated anything to the contrary (except…

> But if you compare that to typical Ada code, the latter is much safer. Ada programmers try to do more things in Ada, probably because many of them need to write high integrity software.

Well, since Rust is explicitly a system programming language, you would expect it to call into underlying systems more often, hence the use of unsafe.

The difference is this: Like all programming languages, Rust lives close to the metal. The „unsafe“ keyword is merely a marker that a system call might happen here, which might be inherently unsafe (think of C‘s localization methods which are not thread safe).

That‘s it. You can call ADA more safer but it still has to adhere to the underlying complexity of the system it runs on, and upon interaction with it via FFI calls it will be just as unsafe, just without a marker.

The low hanging fruit is exactly what Rust is made for. It‘s explicitly overengineered for that one use case, where GC languages can not be used for whatever reasons. It lives in the twilight zone between a GC and calling alloc/free yourself.

I disagree with people rewriting everything in Rust that could be simpler and better done with Python/Csharp/Go/etc. But if you need to work with manual memory management or concurrency with shared references, Rust is certainly your best bet.

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