The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#221

Post by kragen » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 1:47 AM UTC

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #210

kragen wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is great, thanks! crawford's post pulls no punches: > Teaching students about TCP/IP using the OSI model is like teaching students about small engine repair using a chart of the Wankel cycle. It's nonsensical to the point of farce. The OSI model is not some "ideal" model of networking, it is not a "gold standard" or even a "useful reference." It's the architecture of a specific network stack that failed to gain…

That's sort of like saying "TCP" is a failure because everyone now uses SSH instead of TELNET. TCP/IP still has to do all of the things the OSI stack does, it just does it in a different manner and there are (thankfully) plenty of well defined wire-formats and processing expectations so interoperability is pretty straight-forward. But I still think IPSec would have been MUCH easier to deploy had TCP/IP maintained a r…

Each of the articles linked upthread separately explain why everything you said in your comment is incorrect.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#222

Post by Johanx64 » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 1:50 AM UTC

TacticalCoder wrote: post #10

Dansvidania wrote: post #2

looking at how it played out with javascript one can't but agree. (edit: I mean it unironically)

Yup first thing I thought. That pathetic piece of crap conceived in basically 15 days (not kidding)... BUT it is what we have on the front-end for web apps so there's that. JavaScript is the mediocre turd I love to hate.

Problem with Javascript is that it is not confined to webbrowsers and webapps, but it and it's associated business models (SaaS) finds it's way everywhere, at first desktop apps got enshitified by it, then all sorts of smart devices, and all the way to embedded systems in cars with their laggy sloppy UIs everywhere.

It probably is the most severe case of "worse is better" I've experienced so far.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#223

Post by computably » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 1:51 AM UTC

raincole wrote: post #216

dkarl wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Expedient" is a common (or at least not rare) English word that means something like "practical and effective even if not directly attending to higher or deeper considerations." For example, if two students in a class are having frequent confrontations that bring learning in the class to a halt, and attempts by teachers and counselors to address their conflict directly haven't been effective, the expedient solution…

> if we solve climate change with geoengineering instead of by addressing thoughtless consumerism, corporate impunity, and lack of international accountability, many people would feel frustrated or let down If some people feel frustrated or let down because we achieve a literal miracle (by today's technology standards) that saves millions of lives I'm willing to call them mentally unhinged.

Presuming said miracle is possible, geoengineering at a scale capable of "solving" climate change would be a massive gamble. Humanity's ability to model the climate simply isn't at a point where we could say with any confidence what the long-term effects of any particular geoengineering "solution" would be, and short of an abrupt technological singularity, won't be for centuries. Without any appeal to moral judgments whatsoever, it's safe to say geoengineering would only be seriously attempted out of total desperation and signal persistent unresolved issues.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#224

Post by Gigachad » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 1:53 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #121

hammock wrote: post #43

There was an article posted on here[1] a while back that I only just found again, introducing the term "expedience." The idea was that we think we live in a world where people have to have "the best" sweater, be on "the best" social network, drive "the best" car, etc. But when you look at what really WINS, it's not the best, it's the most "expedient" - i.e. sufficiently good, with built-in social proof, inoculated of…

> you might find better prices on individual items if you put a little more work into it That extra work costs you money, too. Calculate how much your job pays you per hour, then you can deduce the $cost of spending more time to get a better deal.

This is a fairly crappy methodology though because the vast majority of people are not substituting paid working time with researching buying things online. So it hasn't "cost" them anything other than their free time which is far more complex than an hourly rate. Maybe they enjoy researching products and in that situation, it wasn't a waste of time at all.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#225

Post by kragen » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 2:04 AM UTC

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #208

kragen wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested to hear what you think! I haven't finished reading it yet. It's a bit repetititive.

It doesn't seem like a "take down" as much as a re-iteration of all the things IBM, DEC, GE and various Telcos did wrong when implementing OSI. I could reduce it to one sentence: "Everyone was so intent on monetizing their own networking implementation they never thought enough about interoperability."

Not only isn't that an accurate summary of Graham's book, it isn't even a topic discussed in the first half of the book, which is all I've read so far. I suspect it isn't a topic discussed in the book at all; can you back up your assertion with some quotes?

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#226

Post by goalieca » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 2:05 AM UTC

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #212

foobarian wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I finally understand why OSI failed, it's the naming! Dear lord.

Oh no. The naming is simple compared to ASN.1/BER parsing.

I’m always confused about when to use DER and when to use BER. Pretty much have to study the history to get it.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#227

Post by th43o2i4234234 » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 2:12 AM UTC

The critical point of the article holds true of everything in human social networks (be it religion/culture/philosophy/apps/industry...).

If you don't achieve virality, you're as good as dead. Once a episteme/meme spreads like wild-fire there's very little chance for a reassessment based on value/function - because the scope is now the big axis of valuation.

It's actually worse because humanity is now a single big borg. Even 30-40 years back, there were sparsely connected pools where different species of fish could exist - not any more. The elites of every single country is a part of the Anglosphere, and their populations mimic them (eventually).

This tumbling towards widespread mono-memetism in every single sphere of life is deeply dissatisfying about the modern human life, not just for PL/OS/... but also for culture etc.

Anthropocene of humanity itself.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#228

Post by esafak » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 2:22 AM UTC

th43o2i4234234 wrote: post #227

The critical point of the article holds true of everything in human social networks (be it religion/culture/philosophy/apps/industry...). If you don't achieve virality, you're as good as dead. Once a episteme/meme spreads like wild-fire there's very little chance for a reassessment based on value/function - because the scope is now the big axis of valuation. It's actually worse because humanity is now a single big bo…

> If you don't achieve virality, you're as good as dead.

Are you? Maybe the worse solution peaks faster, but can be supplanted by a better solution in the future, like how Rust is displacing C/C++ in new projects. The better solution may never be popular yet persist.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#229

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 2:22 AM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #148

dokyun wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust is not the MIT approach, because an important aspect of that approach is that it's conceptually simple. Rust is a leviathan of complexity both in interface and implementation. Common Lisp is an MIT approach language, and approaches the same problems like memory and type safety by doing "the right thing" by default and offering more advanced options like type annotations and optimization levels in a "take it or l…

> An observation of this idea is that Rust compilers are terribly huge and slow because they use static type-tetris for everything, Rust's typechecking passes are not the reason why the compiler is slow. Code generation dominates compile times. Type checking is pretty quick, and Rust makes some decisions that enable it to do so, like no global inference.

[deleted]

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#230

Post by samplatt » Tue, Oct 08, 2024, 2:31 AM UTC

ambicapter wrote: post #154

KerrAvon wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is misleading -- geoengineering + social change will be necessary. You're not going to Scotty your way out of climate change.

What's misleading here? He was using that as an example of usage of the word 'expedient', not actually suggesting climate change solutions.

A lot of people in this thread seem to think OP was suggesting that geoengineering is a possible way forward right now, when they were just positing it as an example.