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No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

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Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#221

Post by quectophoton »

nottorp wrote: post #68
jstimpfle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Below a certain threshold, "quick calls" are the best thing to do. Some of the most inspiring discussions come from someone bringing up an issue they have right there and then. Good discussions often start from something that doesn't seem so important, that doesn't have a clear outline from the start. If there isn't the possibility to start a discussion instantly once in a little while, there is a good chance it won'…

Pray tell, why can't you do this discussion async in writing?

If you do text, you only help once. The problem is solved for everyone else, and you leave a trace for people searching for similar problems.

On the other hand, in secret 1:1 calls with no trace, that only help one and only one person, you can appear busy and productive while also helping people in secret, and doing so multiple times for the same or similar problem. You reap the rewards multiple times.

And since people never put any initial effort at all (they just say "hi do you have a minute?" instead of describing their issue), if multiple people have the same problem right now, then you have plausible deniability for your multiple calls because you didn't know that they had the same issue, so that's why all calls were separate instead of solving them all at once.

Don't even mention the fact that others can explain their initial problem with screenshots, or with a Slack recording (literally 2 clicks, and then doing exactly the same as they would do during the first minute of the call anyway), to get quick context and then either solve the problem instantly or jump to a call. Nono, while those things get points for not being searchable, they still leave some useful information in the history (mainly some context and the moment in time when you had that conversation), and we can't risk having that.

Also, if they send the video, Slack might even include a searchable transcription (I don't know if that's a feature yet though), and if that wasn't bad enough, if you end up not knowing the answer, the video can even be shared with others on a shared channel to save time finding the person who knows how to fix the problem.

Hopefully you understand now the problems with async text communication.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#222

Post by rumblestrut »

rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

I am so glad to be in the office.

For instance, every morning when I come in there is a person on my team that will talk about their family, their kids, their life, and that goes on for about 15 minutes. In the spirit of team building, I entertain it for awhile. But that does come with a cost.

Someone came in a few weeks ago not feeling well, but decided not to stay home. Ended up having covid and spread it to others. It's hard to be productive when half the team is out sick.

Every day I have to be in the office with others, I truly hate it. The pandemic was hard, but I absolutely miss being able to work from home every day.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#223

Post by Pet_Ant »

kethinov wrote: post #181
gregjor wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, especially when no one writing code, or managing anything, has a meaningful measure of their "productivity," or how removing or changing variables might "optimize" it. People talk about optimizing their productivity as if they had a meter on their desk showing a number, but it just comes down to subjective experience and mood. People who act like their time has so much value they can ignore and talk down to th…

A well-functioning organization would not devalue people who are more judicious about their use of time, preferring productivity over unnecessary socializing. But while what you're describing does not describe a well-functioning organization, it's definitely true in practice. People who buck the silly social dynamics in office cultures will be perceived as less productive whether it's true or not and are frequently d…

> People who buck the silly social dynamics in office cultures will be perceived as less productive whether it's true or not and are frequently devalued.

Younger, I would have agreed with your sentiment. Now, I appreciate good coworkers. If I don't have a socialisation outlet during the day, it's just draining and I burn out faster. If you're a person that is just a grumpy Gus isolated in their cubicle, you can make your team less effective and undermine the team spirit.

This is where I feel like management fails. To build a team you need to really pick personalities that work well together and honing and tuning the group composition is something that managers can do. Put the introverts together. Put night owls together. Parents are more understanding of taking something to over to cover for someone because they need it sometimes too.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#224

Post by GoToRO »

akoboldfrying wrote: post #79

I sympathise with some of this, but the tone is unbearable. >Don't worry, I'm not mad at you. Those are common mistakes that people make Calling a common and natural communication style that is not your preferred communication style objectively a "mistake". Charming. >Maybe you work in an environment where productivity is low, so everyone has time to jump on a quick call or chat with you any time you ask. "But I don'…

This is the classic "I don't have any counterarguments so I'll complain about something fuzzy, like the tone" comment.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#226

Post by GoToRO »

DebtDeflation wrote: post #41

I will never understand people who write "Hello" or "Hi Joe" in Slack and then just wait. It has to be some form of mental illness.

They are well meaning, but they just don't realize this is async communication. They only know direct, sync communication. This is one signal that tells me they are junior (even after years of "experience").

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#227

Post by RestlessMind »

axitanull wrote: post #75
rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

Why is it that every time someone tried to push RTO agenda in a thread, "water cooler talk" has always been pushed like it is one of most important thing in a job? Is "water cooler talk" the new "open office layout"?

> .. been pushed like it is one of most important thing in a job?

because it is actually one of the most important thing in a job. During Covid, work was boring as hell because there were no spontaneous interactions or small breaks to chit chat with other people.

And guess what, most of the colleagues I have talked to mentioned that they missed those kind of interactions. Barring some super introvert ones who just want to be left alone, but those are a tiny minority.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#228

Post by RestlessMind »

ctm92 wrote: post #44
rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

There's no problem with socializing, but this can also be a special appointment where everyone is free to join and can talk about stuff that is not related so a specific issue. We do a weekly fixed appointment where we gather together and smalltalk about whatever is on our minds.

> We do a weekly fixed appointment ..

We also have something like that. But since it is not spontaneous, not every participant in the same state of mind and hence those meetings are a dud. Whereas participants in water cooler conversations are there because they want a break and want to chit chat. So conversations are more natural and hence enjoyable.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#229

Post by jstimpfle »

nottorp wrote: post #197
jstimpfle wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not engaging enough. I write a couple lines, expect a couple lines some 1 to 180 minutes later that might miss half the point, etc. Totally different dynamic. Having to cache in the previous state of the discussion whenever I receive a reply is exhausting. So some things are just not brought up. And whenever it's actually an interactive synchronous live-chat, why not just hop on a call then?

Cache? It’s a text chat, it has history?

Are you implying that 1) everything from the chat is immediately present in the brain when taking up the discussion at a later point, as well as 2) Last time you left the chat, all the the relevant context was well encoded as chat text in the first place?

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#230

Post by jstimpfle »

quectophoton wrote: post #221
nottorp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pray tell, why can't you do this discussion async in writing?

If you do text, you only help once. The problem is solved for everyone else, and you leave a trace for people searching for similar problems. On the other hand, in secret 1:1 calls with no trace, that only help one and only one person, you can appear busy and productive while also helping people in secret, and doing so multiple times for the same or similar problem. You reap the rewards multiple times. And since peop…

You're being cynical and it seems you take a quite extremist stance. My impression is you're blind to the value of ephemeral, low-ceremony discussion. Just bounce an idea of someone else and see what comes back. Sharing fews, helping each other learn, etc.

Not everything needs to be recorded, in fact I'm very happy that most discussions aren't. Spare me the crap. I've seen many company wikis full of stuff that nobody ever looks up, because it's mostly irrelevant, outdated, or plain wrong content.

The value of discussions mostly isn't in the things that can be recorded or searched later, but in the effort the participants put into it.

As stated before, this is up to a certain threshold. One or a few low-friction discussions per day can be very fine. It shouldn't take up the biggest part of your day's focus time.

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