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In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

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Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#221

Post by gizajob »

samatman wrote: post #130
llm_trw wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given what OS X has become it's un-obsoleted itself again. It's kind of ironic that you're using a post from 20 years ago to invalidate an essay from 25 years ago, about an OS that's been substantially dumbed down in the last 10 years. Bad corporate blood will tell.

I also "embraced OS X as soon as it was available". My first Linux install was Yggdrasil, but I cut my teeth on SPARC stations. I respected two kinds of computer: Unix workstations, and the Macintosh. So when Apple started making workstations, I got one. I've been a satisfied customer ever since. I have no idea whatsoever what dumbing down you're referring to. The way I use macOS has barely changed in the last ten ye…

Seconded. Make it 20 years.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#222

Post by kolanos »

isametry wrote: post #132
_yb2s wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way has it been “dumbed down?” I use modern MacOS as a Unix software development workstation and it works great- nothing substantial has changed in 20 years other than better package managers. I suppose they did remove X11 but it’s trivial to install yourself.

Not GP, but usually when people talk about the "dumbing down" of macOS, they refer to new apps and GUI elements adopted from iOS. macOS as an operating system has been "completed" for about 7 years. From that point, almost all additions to it have been either focused on interoperation with the iPhone (good), or porting of entire iPhone features directly to Mac (usually very bad). Another point of view is that macOS i…

> Another point of view is that macOS is great, but all ideas that make it great come from 20 years ago, and have died at the company since then. If Apple were to build a desktop OS today, there's no way they would make it the best Unix-like system of all time.

Many of those ideas came from NeXT, so more like 30 years ago.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#223

Post by themadturk »

It may be outdated, but it's still one of my favorite Stephenson texts. It's been a while since I read it, but the best part for me is his explanation of abstraction in graphical systems, which I think is still valuable today as we get further and further away from whatever the fundamental interface is between human and computer.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#224

Post by thfuran »

throwawaydummy wrote: post #181
mxwsn wrote: post #2

This essay by Neal Stephenson was first published in 1999. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_... The analogy of OS as cars (Windows is a station wagon, Linux is a tank) is brought up in the recent Acquired episode on Microsoft, where Vista was a Dodge Viper but Windows 7 was a Toyota Camry, which is what users actually wanted.

I didn’t know myself let alone computers but anyone know why Vista and Windows 8 got such bad reps?

Vista significantly changed the security model, introducing UAC and requiring driver signing. This caused a bunch of turmoil. It also had much higher system requirements than xp for decent performance, meaning that it ran at least a bit shit on many people's machines when it was new, and that did it no favors.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#225

Post by matheusmoreira »

bregma wrote: post #60
xg15 wrote: post #22

> Buyer: "But this dealership has mechanics on staff. If something goes wrong with my station wagon, I can take a day off work, bring it here, and pay them to work on it while I sit in the waiting room for hours, listening to elevator music." Bullhorn: "But if you accept one of our free tanks we will send volunteers to your house to fix it for free while you sleep!" Did Linux distros actually offer support at some po…

> Did Linux distros actually offer support at some point? Ever wonder how Red Hat became a billion-dollar company before it was bought by IBM, and now makes up a huge segment of IBM's revenue stream? Have you noticed SuSE is still around? Have you ever speculated on how Canonical keeps its lights on? Paid support, my naive friend. Linux support is big business and is what keeps the popular distros alive.

Arch Linux seems to be an exception.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_Linux

> Arch developers remain unpaid, part-time volunteers, and there are no prospects for monetizing Arch Linux

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#226

Post by aj7 »

gizajob wrote: post #221
samatman wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also "embraced OS X as soon as it was available". My first Linux install was Yggdrasil, but I cut my teeth on SPARC stations. I respected two kinds of computer: Unix workstations, and the Macintosh. So when Apple started making workstations, I got one. I've been a satisfied customer ever since. I have no idea whatsoever what dumbing down you're referring to. The way I use macOS has barely changed in the last ten ye…

Seconded. Make it 20 years.

Just got a Windows 11 machine. Had to, to run Solidworks. Have it next to a new M3 iMac. They’re all configured with the same apps. Despite not having used Windows in 10 years, these machines behave identically. But Windows 11 is snappier. And you can actually find things that you don’t know where they are!

I was amazed.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#227

Post by II2II »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #216
GrumpyYoungMan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Neal Stephenson acknowledged it was obsolete in 2004: " I embraced OS X as soon as it was available and have never looked back. So a lot of 'In the beginning was the command line' is now obsolete. I keep meaning to update it, but if I'm honest with myself, I have to say this is unlikely. " https://slashdot.org/story/04/10/20/1518217/neal-stephenson-... But people still dredge this quarter century old apocrypha up…

> There was a competing bicycle dealership next door (Apple) that one day began selling motorized vehicles--expensive but attractively styled cars with their innards hermetically sealed, so that how they worked was something of a mystery. Neal said the essay was quickly obsolete, especially in regards to Mac, but I'll always remember this reference about hermetically sealed Apple products. To this day, Apple doesn't…

The difference between Apple and IBM is the latter lost control of their platform and those who inherited, arguably Intel and Microsoft, had no interest in exerting absolute control. (If they tried, it likely would have backfired anyhow.)

As for Apple, their openness comes and goes. The Apple II was rather open, the early Macintosh was not. Macintosh slowly started opening up with early NuBus machines through early Mac OS X. Since then they seem to be closing things up again. Sometimes it was for legitimate reasons (things had to be tightened up for security). Sometimes it was for "business" reasons (the excessively tight control over third-party applications for iOS and the incredible barriers to repair).

As for the author's claims about their workings being a mystery, there wasn't a huge difference between the Macintosh and other platforms. On the software level: you could examine it at will. At the hardware level, nearly everyone started using custom chips at the same time. The big difference would have been IBM compatibles, where the chipsets were the functional equivalent of custom chips yet were typically better documented simply because multiple hardware and operating system vendors needed to support them. Even then, by 1999, the number of developers who even had access to that documentation was limited. The days of DOS, where every application developer had to roll their own hardware support were long past. Open source developers of that era were making a huge fuss over the access to documentation to support hardware beyond the most trivial level.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#228

Post by dang »

larsrc wrote: post #205

Does this win the HN prize for Most Often Reposted Article? It's been posted on average twice a year for 17 years: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

I'm pretty sure it's far from #1 (consider "Story of Mel", "You and Your Research", and many others), but I don't have that list or even know how to create such a list, as it's perturbed by variations in both titles and URLs.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#229

Post by groby_b »

_yb2s wrote: post #129
llm_trw wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given what OS X has become it's un-obsoleted itself again. It's kind of ironic that you're using a post from 20 years ago to invalidate an essay from 25 years ago, about an OS that's been substantially dumbed down in the last 10 years. Bad corporate blood will tell.

In what way has it been “dumbed down?” I use modern MacOS as a Unix software development workstation and it works great- nothing substantial has changed in 20 years other than better package managers. I suppose they did remove X11 but it’s trivial to install yourself.

Off the top of my head:

- The settings app is now positively atrocious, "because iPhone"

- SIP is an absolute pox to deal with.

- "Which version of Python will we invoke today" has become a fabulous game with multiple package managers in the running

- AppCompat games.

- Continued neglect for iTunes (which is now a TV player with a "if we must also provide music, fine" segment added - but it still thinks it should be a default client for audio files)

- iCloud wedging itself in wherever it can

Yes, all of those can be overcome. That's because the bones are still good, but anything that Apple has hung off those since Tim Cook is at best value neutral, and usually adds a little bit more drag for every new thing.

Don't get me wrong, I still use it - because it's still decent enough - but there's definitely a trajectory happening.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#230

Post by gizajob »

aj7 wrote: post #226
gizajob wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. Make it 20 years.

Just got a Windows 11 machine. Had to, to run Solidworks. Have it next to a new M3 iMac. They’re all configured with the same apps. Despite not having used Windows in 10 years, these machines behave identically. But Windows 11 is snappier. And you can actually find things that you don’t know where they are! I was amazed.

I’m not knocking windows for me I’m just kind of hooked on the Mac trackpad and a few little things about the Mac that I prefer now. I use a networked Windows machine semi regularly and there’s nothing wrong with it. I just remember the days of BSOD and viruses and random shutdowns to install updates that couldn’t be stopped in the middle of the workday and 1000 other little niggles that makes me choose a Mac. I’m sure contemporary windows machines if configured right are totally fine, better even - my housemate keeps touching to scroll on my Mac screen because she has a windows laptop that comes with a touchscreen and I can see how that would be handy on the Mac.
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