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Are animals conscious? New research
221–230 of 544 posts
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#222> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…
I consider the difference between animals and us as ... don't laugh .. the difference between an 8bit video game and a playstation3/4/5 one. We might have 10, 1000, or 100000x more details but the core ingredients are the same.
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#223> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…
Harari gave me some insights when he explained that when humans lived closer to nature, as hunter gatherers, we tended to see the continuum of life on earth. "God" was in everything. After the advent of agriculture and animal husbandry it became necessary to change our views in order to raise animals to slaughter and eat them. Religions after that time separated humans from the rest of the animal kingdom and provided…
Do you know any other author discussing this topic ?
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#224> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…
Even if there was no Bible, it is clear as crystal to anybody who thinks about it that humans are in a category of our own. Any animal that could do even a thousandth of what people are capable of would be the most extraordinary animal. It is also crystal clear that animals have consciousness. A person would have to be without much consciousness themselves to think otherwise, in my opinion.
Have you, as an adult, had a relationship with an animal, like a cat or a dog?
I was thinking about this once, why I believe my cat was conscious and was a person. I came to the conclusion that the relationship was a sort of epistemology, and that I knew my cat was a person, had a personality, and loved me because I understood the relationship. When my cat was passing, all they wanted to do was spend time with me.
I realized this was true not just of my cat, but with every human in my life, as well. How do I know my friends are people? How do I know they care for me? Because I have a relationship with them and I understand the relationship.
That's not the sort of factual knowledge I can express and transfer to you. But it's real all the same.
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
But that reason relies on a presupposition that human language is categorically different than animal language, which is also a claim that relies on presupposing a categorical distinction which must be disproven, rather than starting from the assumption that human and animal communication exists along an evolutionary spectrum. And how did we arrive at this categorical distinction becoming axiomatic? As you say, by wa…
Animal language is obviously on the same level as human laughter and cries and whimpers. Animals don't teach language to each other like humans do. But I don't see what that has to do with consciousness, to me animal language is much closer to consciousness than human language. Consciousness is all about emotions, not language, and animal language that humans also has is directly tied to emotional expression. Our ML…
> Animals don't teach language to each other like humans do.
They do not teach language like humans because they are not humans. However studies show that some animals do teach their young language.
Many bird species, such as zebra finches and canaries, learn their songs through a process similar to human language acquisition. Juvenile birds listen to adult tutors and practice their songs, receiving feedback and adjusting their vocalizations accordingly.
Dolphins and whales use complex vocalizations for communication. Mothers and other group members have been observed teaching calves specific calls and whistles, which are essential for social interactions and identification within pods.
Meerkats exhibit teaching behaviors where older members demonstrate specific alarm calls and foraging techniques to pups. These calls convey different types of information, similar to vocabulary teaching in humans.
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Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#226As soon as we ate the forbidden fruit we became self aware, aware we were naked, aware we were vulnerable and mortal. We learned about the future and that we could sacrifice things now to perhaps make it better. So we work, we pass on more than instinct with language to our children. Read of the transformation that Helen Keller went through once she learned language, many similarities to this biblical narrative.
https://scentofdawn.blogspot.com/2011/07/before-soul-dawn-he...
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one Fundamentally it's really "practical" issue. We want to use, abuse and kill animals and we make up justifications. It won't change until the material conditions we live under change.
I think this is entirely it - and while we are still reliant on animals for meat and food production, they are no longer made to toil to anywhere near the degree they once were in the developed world, and so this has allowed a shift in our sensibilities. As you say, it’s a practical issue. In much the same way as esteemed 19th century scientists argued that black people, brown people, Irish people, women , were not t…
Good to remember these observations during war time when “your side” has de-humanized the “other side”.
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The only reason why animal consciousness has been controversial historically is a religious one—the Bible has typically been read as placing humanity in a category of its own. And yet we see countless secular scientists clinging to that perspective when even a cursory glance at the evidence and a basic application of Occam's razor would suggest the opposite. It's not just the Bible. It's virtually every religion an…
> I reject panpsychism as going against common sense; I think there probably are very simple (read: small) animals that aren't conscious. Yes, I can definitely agree with this. I'm more reacting to the idea that it's somehow an unresolved scientific question whether dogs and cats and other mammals have emotions. There isn't a sufficiently large difference in neurology between humans and other mammals for me to believ…
> It's not clear to me that landing on the moon and discovering quantum mechanics require a different kind of mental process than building a beaver dam or discovering a use for medicinal herbs.
To the contrary, I do think landing on the moon and QM requires a different kind of mental process than a beaver.
However, the problem is that this implies that consciousness is a function of intelligence, and if only exceptional intelligence is sufficient evidence of consciousness, then would less intelligent people be considered having no consciousness, just like animals?
If one entertains the additional argument in the form of "all humans are the same, and some are shown to be smart (spaceships, QM, etc), thus all humans are conscious", then the question becomes why don't we apply the logic to all animals/mammals/apes, since it's clear the biologically we are constructed with the same parts?
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#229[deleted]
Re: Are animals conscious? New research
#230In Indian culture, various species were regarded as being on a certain place in a spectrum of consciousness. Vedic literatures regarded even plants as beings who can have feelings. From zero (a rock) to almost 100% (a human) differentiation of species was primarily based on level of consciousness (bodily features as another factor, ofcourse) and interestingly, according to philosophy, selection of a specific species depended on a living entities 'karma', one gets a body with a certain level of consciousness according to the 'good' or 'bad' deeds one does in ones life.