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Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

security.apple.com

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Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#221

Post by kfreds »

Wow! This is incredibly exciting.

Apple's Private Cloud Compute seems to be conceptually equivalent with System Transparency - an open-source software project my colleagues and I started six years ago.

I'm very much looking forward to more technical details. Should anyone at Apple see this, please feel free to reach out to me at stromberg@mullvad.net. I'd be more than happy to discuss our design, your design, and/or give you feedback.

Relevant links:

- https://mullvad.net/en/blog/system-transparency-future

- http://system-transparency.org (somewhat outdated)

- http://sigsum.org

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#223

Post by dwaite »

verisimi wrote: post #181
noahtallen wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that’s completely fair. It basically puts Apple in the same bucket as Google or OpenAI. Google obviously tracks everything you do for ads, recommendations, AI, you name it. They don’t even hide it, it’s a core part of their business model. Apple, on the other hand, has made a pretty serious effort to ensure that no employee can access your data on these AI systems. That’s hugely different! They’re going…

It's completely fair, because regardless of third party audits, chips, etc, there are backdoors right along the line, that are going to provide Apple and the government with secret legal access to your data. They can simply go to a secret court, receive a secret judgment, and be authorised to secretly view your data. Does anyone really think this is not already the case? There is no transparency. A licensed third par…

> Does anyone really think this is not already the case?

I don't think this is already the case, and I think the article is an example of safeguards being put into place (in this particular scenario) to prevent it.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#224

Post by verisimi »

theshrike79 wrote: post #213
verisimi wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely fair, because regardless of third party audits, chips, etc, there are backdoors right along the line, that are going to provide Apple and the government with secret legal access to your data. They can simply go to a secret court, receive a secret judgment, and be authorised to secretly view your data. Does anyone really think this is not already the case? There is no transparency. A licensed third par…

The best protection against "secret orders" is to use mathematics. Build your system so that it can't be decrypted, don't log anything etc. Mullvad has been doing this with VPNs and law enforcement has tested it - there's nothing for them to get. Same has been proven with Apple not allowing FBI to open an iPhone, because it'd set a precedent. Future iPhone versions were made so that it's literally impossible for even…

> Same has been proven with Apple not allowing FBI to open an iPhone, because it'd set a precedent. Future iPhone versions were made so that it's literally impossible for even Apple to open a locked iPhone.

Right, but I have no reason to think that this isn't a marketing ploy either, just another story. There is simply no way that Apple is as big as it is, without providing whatever data the government requires. Corporations and governments are not your friend.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#225

Post by verisimi »

dwaite wrote: post #223
verisimi wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely fair, because regardless of third party audits, chips, etc, there are backdoors right along the line, that are going to provide Apple and the government with secret legal access to your data. They can simply go to a secret court, receive a secret judgment, and be authorised to secretly view your data. Does anyone really think this is not already the case? There is no transparency. A licensed third par…

> Does anyone really think this is not already the case? I don't think this is already the case, and I think the article is an example of safeguards being put into place (in this particular scenario) to prevent it.

On the basis of not having information, cos all this occurs out of sight, you believe this is not the case. Ok.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#226

Post by rekoil »

kfreds wrote: post #221

Wow! This is incredibly exciting. Apple's Private Cloud Compute seems to be conceptually equivalent with System Transparency - an open-source software project my colleagues and I started six years ago. I'm very much looking forward to more technical details. Should anyone at Apple see this, please feel free to reach out to me at stromberg@mullvad.net. I'd be more than happy to discuss our design, your design, and/or…

This was my take from the presentation as well, immediately thought of your feature. Will be interesting to hear your take on it once the details have been made available and fully understood.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#227

Post by dwaite »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #182
hexage1814 wrote: post #168

The thing with cloud and with anything related to it, anything that connects to the internet somehow... is that, unless it's open source and the servers decentralized, you are always trusting SOMEONE. Sure, Apple might make their best to ensure nobody – but them – have access to your data... but Apple controls all the end points. It controls the updates your iPhone receives, it controls the servers where this happens…

> unless it's open source and the servers decentralized, you are always trusting SOMEONE Specifically, open-source and self-hostable . Open source doesn't save you if people can't run their own servers, because you never know whether what's in the public repo is the exact same thing that's running on the cloud servers.

You can by having an attestation of the signed software components up from the secure boot process, and having the client device validate said attestation corresponds to the known public version of each component, and randomize client connections across infrastructure.

Other than obvious "open source software isn't perfectly secure" attack scenarios, this would require a non-targeted hardware attack, where the entire infrastructure would need to misinterpret the software or misrepresent the chain of custody.

I believe this is one of the protections Apple is attempting to implement here.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#228

Post by tsimionescu »

detourdog wrote: post #211
fastball wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And (basically) nobody running linux is individually verifying the source code of every little piece of software that goes into it (maybe Linus is), so you're still trusting someone .

I can’t even find the appropriate documentation.

How would documentation help you trust the code?

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#229

Post by egorfine »

tantalor wrote: post #82
ein0p wrote: post #78

It is not possible for this to be fully private in the United States because the government not only can force Apple to open up the kimono, it can also forbid it to talk about it. There’s not really anything Apple can do to work around this “limitation”. Thank your “representative” for extending the PATRIOT Act when you get a chance.

Warrant canary

It makes zero sense for a company of this size. I bet they are served with gag orders like daily, so the warrant canary is going to expire the moment it is published.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#230

Post by detourdog »

tsimionescu wrote: post #228
detourdog wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t even find the appropriate documentation.

How would documentation help you trust the code?

How does one understand what is going on with out a clear set of documentation? Either one is so smart they can review everyline of everything they are running. My contention is that it is hard enough to find authoritative documentation much less developing an understanding of the code needed or running.

The choice is either many little trust relationships or a giant leap of faith. I feel better served by a giant leap of faith and access to all the technology I can use.

I prefer no documentation and consistent behavior to no documentation and a bunch of internet howtos on what might work.

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