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If English was written like Chinese (1999)

zompist.com

221–230 of 312 posts

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is what every language with an alphabetic writing does, and it works just fine. It is not "another layer of cognitive load", Disagree. Once you get accustomed to reading kanji, and did not learn to visually parse (except very briefly as a young grade school child) nearly all of the words that you see regularly as logograms first, and groups of sounds second, the experience would be akin to reading English whi…

> Disagree. Once you get accustomed to reading kanji And how many years does it take to? What about words that you have never seen before? What about ambiguous or uncommon readings that require furigana even for fully educated adults? As I said in the sibling comment, I live in Japan and every Japanese person I have met complaints about the massive effort it took them to learn how to read and write.

> every Japanese person I have met complaints about the massive effort it took them to learn how to read and write

This stupid phenomenon is due to the fact that Japanese Gov decided to teach only arbitrarily 1000 kanji to school kids and this number decrease every 10 years.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B8%B8%E7%94%A8%E6%BC%A2%E5...

You can see how stupid it is.

> People complain that kanji being used in the prefecture are not include in the list (no included so no obligation to teach in school) e.g.阪鹿奈岡熊梨阜埼茨栃媛, so the gov finally add those to the next revision.

While at the same time Chinese people are learning 3X more. No one ever complain about the difficulty of Chinese character after all.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#223

The article does a decent job of explaining of how Chinese characters work, but it falls short of explaining why. The reason why Chinese continues to use a logographic writing system is due to both tradition and practicality. English has grossly grouped together Chinese as one unified language, when in actuality it is not. In fact, many "dialects" are mutually unintelligible--one speaker cannot understand another spe…

If it is nearly impossible to switch the US from imperial to metric, I cannot imagine what it would take to unify a massive population under a single dialect. I think the answer is measured in generations.

The US will be slower than most places due to the federation and ideological individualism.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is nearly impossible to switch the US from imperial to metric, I cannot imagine what it would take to unify a massive population under a single dialect. I think the answer is measured in generations.

VTubers and ~15 years. Media, in generalized form. The velocity of weebs internalizing fringe Japanese concepts is astonishing.

Not as fast as the reverse. It's surprising how much Japanese is just borrowed English written in katakana.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#225
post #22

If any language was written like Chinese has the same answer -- the written form of Chinese was not necessarily meant to be phonetic, although there are portions of it that have evolved to be phonetic. The characters have meanings and the grammar is very fluid to the point where a sequence of characters stringed together (such as in poetry) can be interpreted and debated. Cantonese and Mandarin are considered dialect…

Ah, I perhaps should have read all the comments before posting here, because it seems that you're answering my question, and confirm this idea that phonetic interpretation of written Chinese is a "recent" development. This idea seems to be foreign to all native Chinese speakers I've encountered, and this seems to be in contradiction with what I can grasp from research. If I may, I've got another related question: Chi…

There's no great analogy where the modern language is English, because English does not position itself as a successor of a long, linguistically-continuous literary tradition. That said, there is certainly an Anglo tradition of education in which well-educated schoolboys were expected to be able to puzzle through a smattering of horribly butchered Greek and Latin.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#226
> The basic principle will be, one yingzi for a syllable with a particular meaning

The problem is that the English language does not have this structure, whereas Chinese does.

The individual syllables in Chinese words have their own independent meanings. If you break apart the English word "random," "ran" and "dom" don't independently mean anything. The reason why Chinese characters work well for Chinese is because the fundamental unit of Chinese is really the syllable, rather than the word. English isn't like that, so a Chinese-like writing system would be a very poor fit to the English language.

That being said, I sometimes wonder whether this property of Chinese comes from the writing system, or whether it preexisted writing. In other words, to what extent has Chinese been influenced by its writing system?

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#227
post #172
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know it's not English or any Western entity that has grouped the Chinese languages together as one, but the Chinese government, for political reasons. Western linguists recognize the variants of "Chinese" as different languages.

Here in China, linguists consider the different Western "languages" to be dialects, and believe that the Western governments, for political reasons, make people think they speak different languages than their neighbors, so that they cannot unite. I'm just joking, but what you say is as absurd as my joke. Western linguists don't consider the dialects different languages. If they do, they do it for political reasons. A…

Open WALS or Glottolog or any other language catalog and you will see they categorize Chinese as a language family, consisting of multiple languages like Mandarin, Wu/Hui, Min, etc. You are free to disagree of course, but "Western linguists don't consider the dialects different languages" is simply not true to my knowledge.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#228
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for beginners. But for fluent speakers, kanji are very necessary to distinguish all the homophones. E.g. 効果, 硬化, 降下.. are hard to learn, but they're clear. こうか is much easier to learn, but it could mean any of 10-15 unrelated things.

All of which native speakers have no trouble distinguishing between in conversation when there are no Kanji anywhere. It's the same with homophones in any language, usually the context makes it clear because the alternatives don't fit. The homophones in Japanese and Korean pretty much all come from the vocabulary they share with Chinese which makes up the bulk of the vocabulary for both those languages. One doesn't u…

> It's the same with homophones in any language,

It really isn't. In conversation fluent JP speakers tend to avoid compounds that would be ambiguous, or add distinguishers like "学校の校歌". Honestly, try converting a paragraph of text from a newspaper to all kana, and having a native speaker read it.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#229
post #200

The article does a decent job of explaining of how Chinese characters work, but it falls short of explaining why. The reason why Chinese continues to use a logographic writing system is due to both tradition and practicality. English has grossly grouped together Chinese as one unified language, when in actuality it is not. In fact, many "dialects" are mutually unintelligible--one speaker cannot understand another spe…

> It's one of the reasons why subtitles are so prevalent in Chinese media I'd love to hear other people's take on this. I heard this many times when I lived in China, however living in Taiwan - people still always use subtitles. In Taiwan there are vanishingly few people that don't speak Mandarin, so it's not inserted for people that are bad at Mandarin. You will see that both in China and Taiwan people that are flue…

I’m not 100% bilingual, but my take is that there’s a lot more to be gained from the subtitles due to homophones, wordplay, and literary allusions. It’s like getting genius.com rap annotations in real time for any metaphors or references.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#230
post #73

I studied Chinese for 2 years in University and hitchhiked mainland China in 2019. A common misconception is that Chinese "makes more sense" because many characters look like what they mean. So you can guess what a new character means just by looking at it. A downside is that for many Chinese characters it becomes impossible to know how to pronounce a new word. I've seen adult native speakers ask how to pronounce a n…

> I studied Chinese for 2 years in University and hitchhiked mainland China in 2019. You owe us at least one fun story from mainland China in 2019.

My next goal was Panzhihua, in Sichuan province. I hitched a ride (I can't remember where) with a group who invited me to a party. I was 21 and they were like late 20s. I graciously accepted their invitation, on the condition that they would take me back to the highway a few hours before sunset.

After a fun few hours in the car, we arrive at the party destination- a beautiful plantation of rice paddies and fruit trees. I see escalades and Porsches parked along the long, dirt driveway.

Rural China is often extremely poor, even without running water. This is what made me come back from China less confident in their ability to take over America as #1.

But this place was in the middle of nowhere and very well kept, with a pool and some nice cabins.

We drink a lot at this girl's birthday party. I was used to being the center of attention by now and was quite fluent in Chinese at this time. We drank a lot of baijiu ('white alcohol"), which you must spill on the ground a little before you yell "clean cup!" and then drink.

We go out picking lychees and mangos in the mountains. I pack a bunch in my backpack for later.

Then the group graciously brings me back to the highway so I can hitch a ride to my destination.

I get picked up by an old farmer and his son. I hop in the truck a little drunk. The old farmer starts talking to me about George Washington, so I fumble a quarter out of my pocket and give it to him. He takes me straight to the center of Panzhihua.

By this time, I'm hungry, drunk and tired. I wander around the center and find a place to eat. After finishing my meal at the restaurant, the owner sits next to me and shows me his phone. My face is on the screen, smiling alongside all the others at the party. I had travelled at least 100 miles, but small world anyways.

I left the restaurant, looking for a place to sleep and it was raining. Finding a hostel or just a place to stay is notoriously difficult for foreigners in China. This time I wasn't even gonna try to find a hostel.

I see an almost finished construction job. Prime location to sleep, protected from the rain. Just as I'm about to put down my sleeping bag, I hear a guard yell "HEY, what are you doing!". He runs at me with his flashlight. I grab my things and sneak off into the night.

I wander the city, unable to find even just an awning to sleep under. I'm soaked. I decide to sleep on some sidewalk steps under a few trees.

A couple out on a date talk enthusiastically until they see me in the fetal position on their sidewalk. They hush down the steps.

I hope to finally get some shut-eye. Just as I'm about to fall asleep, I feel a slight itch... then fire throughout my body.

I leap up and take off all my clothes. I find I'm covered in fire ants. They were after the lychees and mangoes I had in my bag.

So there I am, in the middle of Communist China, NAKED, on the side of the road, soaking wet and covered in ants.

I really did stand in the rain and contemplate my existence with my balls hanging out.

I swipe off the ants from my bag, put on my clothes and left those stairs.

I had enough. I walked right across the street and knocked on the door of a security guard's station.

"Hi, I just wanted to let you know I'm standing here under your awning"

The security guard gaped in amazement. After a few questions we just stared at each other. I wasn't going to take no for an answer.

Then he graciously invites me into his guard-station, and lets me sleep in his chair.

The next day, I bought him breakfast. I am eternally grateful to him.

This was just 24 hours in a 90 day trip. Crazy experiences immediately precede and follow this story.

Pictures from that story (and different color) you can find here, as well as two other short stories: https://medium.com/the-ascent/the-hitchhikers-guide-to-china...

If you're reading this and you're reasonably young. You must hitchhike. Don't listen to the scared people that have never done it.

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