Scandal at America's top science fair • Hacker News Board

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#221

Post by belter » Thu, May 23, 2024, 12:42 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #115

uneekname wrote: post #10

I was a finalist at the 2017 ISEF and it was quite an experience. A lot of super smart kids there and we all had fun living it up in Los Angeles. There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. No hate to high schoolers getting valuable STEM experience at local universities, but Regeneron should do more to diffe…

Honestly, in my country (the Netherlands) this whole attitude changed within 1 generation. My parents left met largely alone with my school stuff. Now I hear all my friends complaining that their kid's school "is so much work" for them. Crazy right? When I ask them: Why help them at all (my kids are younger btw), they tell me that "sure we can just not help them, they won't make it into university (but something "low…

Your attitude will change as soon as you have an obviously smart pre-adolescent or adolescent kid, going through puberty and other hard times that come before and after, and deciding to viscerally reject school and study, as proxy for other hard upsetting things they have to deal with as you become an adult.

You ready to let them mess up their future, in the name of not being called an helicopter parent?

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#222

Post by gofreddygo » Thu, May 23, 2024, 3:30 PM UTC

isef_researcher wrote: post #194

georgeburdell wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never judged ISEF, but it was highly predictable that the kids with university mentorship made it from my circuit to there. Felt really unfair to the smart self-motivated kids who didn’t have connections. IMO the fairs should take a much harder stance on this, as it defeats the spirit of such competitions.

People with connections have a leg up, but it's really not that hard to do it yourself. My parents were not researchers, we did not have connections, but I literally could emailed prof after prof showing my enthusiasm & knowledge I had gained already from my research until one decided to take a chance on me. I ended up publishing research with that connection I built which probably made a big difference for my colleg…

    > it's really not that hard to do it yourself
    > could emailed prof after prof

Ahh the usual "it worked for me, so it can't not work for you". coming from a researcher, I'd expect more skepticism.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#223

Post by thriftwy » Thu, May 23, 2024, 9:59 PM UTC

Xelbair wrote: post #218

thriftwy wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This case only became severe because they chose to award these money to compilated work with no attribution. If they didn't reward this specific work it would be a non-issue. So by induction blame lies on the offering part. Doing subpar work is not stealing. Come on, we've been through "intellectual property" already and now this.

you are doing some heavy mental gymnastics right now. What he did was a crime, reward or not, and he should be old enough to understand why that was immoral and possible consequences of it. aren't you affiliated with him somehow?

> What he did was a crime

No! It wasn't. I'll bet no court will agree with you.

Next question.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#224

Post by thriftwy » Thu, May 23, 2024, 10:04 PM UTC

isef_researcher wrote: post #197

thriftwy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The child is nothing to be blamed for, it is a 100% problem of the organizers. For a 17 years old, even throwing together such work is already an worthwhile result. Teens is a golden age of compilation and remixing.

If his project was just shoddy scientifically, that wouldn't be an issue. I'm sure 90% of the projects are like that. He committed deliberate fraud, stealing other people's work (including past kid winners!), and won 50k for it. That's not "throwing something together" it's deliberate cheating.

If they've already awarded him these $50k, congratulations and they should probably close the project down. They've failed basic validation of inputs before transferring $50k to a fradulent competitor.

You do not fail that hard by accident. It speaks of prolonged negligence and as I've said elsewhere, their whole portfolio needs to be rechecked.

As for research ethics, not everybody is a researcher and thus has the same ethic. For me the guys who get bogus computer-generated articles through reviews and into journals are genius, even though people with research background may see that as a violation. Tough life.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#225

Post by AlexeyBelov » Fri, May 24, 2024, 10:23 AM UTC

jgord wrote: post #114

userbinator wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"urgency"? That's what they want you to think... and yes there are lots of articles but they get quickly flagged by those who don't believe in that religion.

Can you define "that religion" .. I'm guessing you mean "people who believe that climate change / global warming is caused by humans burning carbon fuels and emitting CO2" .. ie. Im assuming, but want to check, that you are one of the many people who believe climate warming is happening, but is caused by natural processes, rather than human burning of carbon fuels ? Im aware of polls that show around half of people t…

Notice how he didn't reply yet commented a lot in other threads since. Typical.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#226

Post by tokai » Fri, May 24, 2024, 5:13 PM UTC

eigenket wrote: post #191

gumby wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What tokai said was OK: English is also classified as a Germanic language even though it includes a lot of French words, not to mention Hindi etc. For that matter, a German word like „Dolmetsch“ doesn’t make German a Turkic language.

I think calling something a Germanic language is a bit different to calling it a German language. I completely agree with your point about a "Germanic language" but I disagree about "a German language".

It developed from High German with elements of Aramaic and Hebrew, in the area we would now call west Germany. The only way it's not a German language is if you deny the historic and linguistic roots of the language.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#227

Post by watwut » Fri, May 24, 2024, 9:33 PM UTC

saberience wrote: post #220

watwut wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not how it works. People having tutors are genuinely smart, have discipline, do well and then get tutor to do even better.

How do kids end up "genuinely smart" or "have discipline"? If your parents are rich and have are around and can provide excellent schools, nutrition, love and care, pay for extra-curricular activities etc, you are far more likely to end up being "smart" and "have discipline" than someone who grows up in a family where parents are absent, they have to go to an inner city school, they can't afford school trips, instrum…

Plenty of poor kids are genuinely smart and have discipline too.

My point was, people love to imagine world where smart and discipline is mutually exclusive with "parents paying tutor" or other rich person perk. ImAnd if parents pay those, kid must be lazy or stupid.

It is not so. Even super entitled kid can be smart and work hard. If rich entitlement is just another advantage and so is tutor. Poor kids can be as smart as hardworking too, just without additional advantages.

Plsu, some people are not smart or hard working due to genetics. And damm they can be rich too.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#228

Post by eigenket » Sat, May 25, 2024, 6:02 AM UTC

tokai wrote: post #226

eigenket wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think calling something a Germanic language is a bit different to calling it a German language. I completely agree with your point about a "Germanic language" but I disagree about "a German language".

It developed from High German with elements of Aramaic and Hebrew, in the area we would now call west Germany. The only way it's not a German language is if you deny the historic and linguistic roots of the language.

It did not develop exclusively from high German, as I wrote before and it was geographically widespread enough for clear Eastern vs Western dialects to emerge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_dialects#Eastern_Yiddi...

Rather than existing "in the area we would now call west Germany" as you would like to believe for some reason. Eastern Yiddish in particular is much more than "a German language" (unless you want to call Polish a German language as well).

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#229

Post by saberience » Wed, May 29, 2024, 4:33 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #227

saberience wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do kids end up "genuinely smart" or "have discipline"? If your parents are rich and have are around and can provide excellent schools, nutrition, love and care, pay for extra-curricular activities etc, you are far more likely to end up being "smart" and "have discipline" than someone who grows up in a family where parents are absent, they have to go to an inner city school, they can't afford school trips, instrum…

Plenty of poor kids are genuinely smart and have discipline too. My point was, people love to imagine world where smart and discipline is mutually exclusive with "parents paying tutor" or other rich person perk. ImAnd if parents pay those, kid must be lazy or stupid. It is not so. Even super entitled kid can be smart and work hard. If rich entitlement is just another advantage and so is tutor. Poor kids can be as sma…

You should read "The Tyranny of Merit" by Michael Sandel (Harvard Professor), this problem is well studied at this point. The books point is that America has the idea that it's a meritocracy and the kids that end up succeeding got their out of merit and their inherent talents, but in fact it's actually a delusion, America doesn't have a meritocracy at all, and in fact success is mostly to do with money and influence based on your family background. And this is all based on actual data presented in the book.

Sure, there are poor kids from bad backgrounds who, against all odds, end up doing well. But these are outliers. In general, coming from rich families who throw money into your education, tutors, therapy, extra-curricular activities etc, is a MASSIVE advantage, and as such, one of the highest predictors of ending up at a prestigious college and high paying job is how wealthy your parents are...