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North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

bbc.co.uk

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Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#221

Post by eesmith »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #220
eesmith wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had responded to msla's comment about "typewriters and cheap printing presses". Those didn't exist in the 1500s. þ's disappearance from English is not due to either, though the lack of þ in available type faces was certainly an issue.

But the reference to "cheap printing presses" has to be interpreted as actually being a reference to type, as you have already done with your archive.org link. The press itself cannot either support or fail to support any graphical forms; there's no difference in the press whether you're using type or block printing. Press quality issues are things like "are the surfaces flat" / "how much pressure can the press apply…

I disagree. It does not have to be that. I pointed to a printing press designed for kids. That should be much cheaper than one used to print larger sizes or many copies, much less the quality of the Bible in the 1500s.

I do get your point, but I think it's still wrong to use "cheap" to refer to the typefaces available for the Caxton and KJV Bibles. I suspect they were quite expensive.

The physical press is only part of the printing cost. The Linotype typesetting machine made it possible to set an entire line of type, drawing from a 90 or so characters. While the press itself didn't care, adding new symbols required manual effort, making it more expensive.

Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#222

Post by thaumasiotes »

eesmith wrote: post #221
thaumasiotes wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the reference to "cheap printing presses" has to be interpreted as actually being a reference to type, as you have already done with your archive.org link. The press itself cannot either support or fail to support any graphical forms; there's no difference in the press whether you're using type or block printing. Press quality issues are things like "are the surfaces flat" / "how much pressure can the press apply…

I disagree. It does not have to be that. I pointed to a printing press designed for kids. That should be much cheaper than one used to print larger sizes or many copies, much less the quality of the Bible in the 1500s. I do get your point, but I think it's still wrong to use "cheap" to refer to the typefaces available for the Caxton and KJV Bibles. I suspect they were quite expensive. The physical press is only part…

> but I think it's still wrong to use "cheap" to refer to the typefaces available for the Caxton and KJV Bibles. I suspect they were quite expensive.

I don't think this argument quite works; something can be stunningly expensive, in an absolute sense, at the same time that it's the shoddy low-price option people choose for budget reasons.

Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#223

Post by hoseja »

graypegg wrote: post #200
kibwen wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FORTUNATELYSPACESAREARELATIVELYNEWINVENTIONASARELOWERCASELETTERSANDPUNCTUATIONINGENERAL

A·L·L·S·T·R·I·N·C·S·M·U·S·T·B·E·C·O·M·P·A·T·I·B·L·E·V·V·I·T·H·R·O·M·A·N·S·T·O·N·E·T·A·B·L·E·T·S

*·M·V·S·T·

Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#224

Post by brianmcc »

iainmerrick wrote: post #217
b112 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not be wrong that people do say it, I'm sure people say pretty much anything, across this vast planet. Yet people use double negatives, when meaning the negative too. Doesn't make it right.

I think language is defined by real-world usage, not by the logical structure that we theorise underpins it. If so, double negatives actually are right, or at least they can be, if they successfully communicate meaning.

You're not wrong.

Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#225

Post by eesmith »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #222
eesmith wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It does not have to be that. I pointed to a printing press designed for kids. That should be much cheaper than one used to print larger sizes or many copies, much less the quality of the Bible in the 1500s. I do get your point, but I think it's still wrong to use "cheap" to refer to the typefaces available for the Caxton and KJV Bibles. I suspect they were quite expensive. The physical press is only part…

> but I think it's still wrong to use "cheap" to refer to the typefaces available for the Caxton and KJV Bibles. I suspect they were quite expensive. I don't think this argument quite works; something can be stunningly expensive, in an absolute sense, at the same time that it's the shoddy low-price option people choose for budget reasons.

(Grrr! I've been saying Caxton Bible but I meant Tyndale Bible.)

Sure, it can be, but was it?

The KJV was very expensive as it was. ("Robert Barker invested very large sums in printing the new edition, and consequently ran into serious debt" says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version .) That doesn't mean they used a shoddy low-price option.

Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#226

Post by graypegg »

hoseja wrote: post #223
graypegg wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A·L·L·S·T·R·I·N·C·S·M·U·S·T·B·E·C·O·M·P·A·T·I·B·L·E·V·V·I·T·H·R·O·M·A·N·S·T·O·N·E·T·A·B·L·E·T·S

*·M·V·S·T·

G·R·A·T·I·A·S

Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#227

Post by qingcharles »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #185
londons_explore wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something is written on a road sign does not make it magically copyright or license free. I know a business which has to pay a nominal $1 license fee for the names of its own stores to a map maker, simply because the business has lost any evidence that it had the names before the map maker put them in the map.

> Just because something is written on a road sign does not make it magically copyright or license free. That's untrue; facts can't be copyrighted. Whether there's a road sign or not, the name of the road is not subject to copyright, but if there is a road sign, then it's really easy to prove that your claim about the road is an uncopyrightable fact.

Petty clarification: single facts can't be copyrighted, but collections of facts (e.g. sports scores) can:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_compilation

Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#228

Post by gnabgib »

qingcharles wrote: post #227
thaumasiotes wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because something is written on a road sign does not make it magically copyright or license free. That's untrue; facts can't be copyrighted. Whether there's a road sign or not, the name of the road is not subject to copyright, but if there is a road sign, then it's really easy to prove that your claim about the road is an uncopyrightable fact.

Petty clarification: single facts can't be copyrighted, but collections of facts (e.g. sports scores) can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_compilation

On that page:

  facts are not copyrightable
..compilations are, but you're obtaining a copyright on the compilation, not the facts.

Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#229

Post by globular-toast »

gnabgib wrote: post #228
qingcharles wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Petty clarification: single facts can't be copyrighted, but collections of facts (e.g. sports scores) can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_compilation

On that page: facts are not copyrightable ..compilations are, but you're obtaining a copyright on the compilation, not the facts.

No they aren't, but there is such a thing as a database right which is separate from copyright. This is why OSM changed from a Creative Commons licence (a copyright licence) to ODbL (a database licence).

Re: North Yorkshire Council to phase out apostrophe use on street signs

#230

Post by [deleted] »

tsimionescu wrote: post #124
rjh29 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you've provided an explanation I can see you're right (but downvoted). We would say Thomas-es in the possessive so it's written Thomas's.

It is easy to observe that this "rule" is false. Even though everyone pronounces it "thomases", some spell that "Thomas's", others spell it "Thomas'". It is a purely stylistic spelling difference, and both forms are in common use, in literate environments. So, there is no one rule about how this word is spelled. And since neither form reflects the pronunciation, both are purely conventional, they don't have a much de…

[deleted]
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