Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the context described, it's acting as a tool for a doctor. AI scribes are not conducting experiments.
The use of the AI to treat patients is a medical experiment.
any change to the practice is an experiment.
Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
221–230 of 274 posts
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm a retired software developer that's worked in just about every healthcare-adjacent industry segment you can imagine with HIPAA compliance being an evergreen issue. I know how this sausage gets made on the back end and let me tell you regardless of what impression has been made to you about compliance and safeguards the reality behind the scenes is always messy. Hundreds of gigs of unanonymized user data lying aro…
Yes, I do believe what you're telling me—the state of healthcare tech is definitely leagues behind general consumer tech. However, I do think this is a meaningfully different class of issue when it comes to patients' perceptions and actual harms. Patients are afraid of having their health data used against them. For example, revealing medical conditions to potential employers, revealing health information to friends/…
With stuff like illegal drugs, so long as records are retained by the hospital, what prevents the feds from coming in later with a warrant to go through them?
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#223Privacy and hallucinations would concern me. It seems likely to me that relying on these tools will mean physicians will "trust" the output of these systems and stop checking the notes for accuracy. Checking the notes will become a burden too. Maybe the real solution is to lower the amount of administrative work required? Or hire people to do it?
In my impression of using AI a lot more recently, hallucinations are a non-issue if you are simply using it to transform data. AI hallucinates when it's being asked to extract data from it's own "memory" but not when it's simply given a task to perform and all the necessary input to do it.
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#224Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I do believe what you're telling me—the state of healthcare tech is definitely leagues behind general consumer tech. However, I do think this is a meaningfully different class of issue when it comes to patients' perceptions and actual harms. Patients are afraid of having their health data used against them. For example, revealing medical conditions to potential employers, revealing health information to friends/…
With stuff like illegal drugs, so long as records are retained by the hospital, what prevents the feds from coming in later with a warrant to go through them?
In the US a mere warrant is not enough to pierce doctor patient privilege, afaik. At least i would hope it would take a subpoena or a court order or something of the ilk.
Now, though, if a third party accidentally leaks your patient info, or lead pipes are involved
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
> but otherwise the free market is efficient Efficient in routing public goods to a locked box maybe
If you look at a small enough timeframe and a completely free market without setting up rules to the game to keep it an even playing field, then that's an issue, yes. What are your thoughts on patents?
if there's rules to ensure fairness then it isn't a free market. and if a market with rules could be called a free market, but only for arbitrary slices of time, i'd submit that also isn't a free market.
"allow lucky or unscrupulous owners to swallow less lucky or more ethical owners' businesses until there's only 1-3 players left that are too big to start to compete with and too big for the others to buy out."
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#226Privacy and hallucinations would concern me. It seems likely to me that relying on these tools will mean physicians will "trust" the output of these systems and stop checking the notes for accuracy. Checking the notes will become a burden too. Maybe the real solution is to lower the amount of administrative work required? Or hire people to do it?
In my impression of using AI a lot more recently, hallucinations are a non-issue if you are simply using it to transform data. AI hallucinates when it's being asked to extract data from it's own "memory" but not when it's simply given a task to perform and all the necessary input to do it.
whisper hallucinates - or is just incorrect - fairly often. I have been transcribing old tv and radio programs just to get a real feeling for how inaccurate it is, and for an example, the tv show JAG's main character is Lieutenant Harmon Rabb, Junior. I prompt "You are transcribing a show called JAG - Judge Advocate General - whose main characters are named Lieutenant Harmon Rabb jr, known as Harm or Rabb, [...]" Maybe 1 time out of 20 it will actually put "Rabb" or "Harm".
Even better is stuff like old call in radio shows, the callers are perfectly understandable, but whisper has lots of issues.
If there's something better than whisper, i'd love to try it out.
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#227Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
I once had to go to a walk-in clinic to deal with a minor emergency. The doctor who attended me was literally typing with his pointer fingers.
Were they slow? There's actually plenty of people who can do that at a reasonable or even fast pace. Of course lots of people type reasonably quickly with two thumbs too (or in the case of this comment, a left thumb and right pointer finger).
It’s always slower than typing properly.
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, next time I find one of the forms I'll snag it for you. It was rather eye catching because it explicitly stated "You're allowing us to share data with third parties and service providers that are not HIPPA compliant." How do I get it to you? I wasn't claiming that MyCharts isn't HIPPA compliant: I was complaining as part of a MyCharts workflow I was presented with a form that wanted me to grant someone the righ…
My email is in my profile page. And if you have truly found that the institution is sharing protected health information (e.g., even just names and date of birth) with third parties who have not signed BAAs, that is a lawsuit worth tens of millions plus government fines of $50,000 per piece of compromised data per patient. I highly suspect that there's some misunderstanding or miscommunication here.
The annual HIPAA training I was subjected to for nearly a decade on the EMR provider side of things never brought up these scenarios, but the Privacy Rule does have carve-outs that allow PHI to be transmitted to entities that would not be considered Business Associates, if the patient consents.
Re: Ontario family doctor says new AI notetaking saved her job
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I do believe what you're telling me—the state of healthcare tech is definitely leagues behind general consumer tech. However, I do think this is a meaningfully different class of issue when it comes to patients' perceptions and actual harms. Patients are afraid of having their health data used against them. For example, revealing medical conditions to potential employers, revealing health information to friends/…
With stuff like illegal drugs, so long as records are retained by the hospital, what prevents the feds from coming in later with a warrant to go through them?
HIPAA trumps the warrant. HIPAA is serious when it says patient data can only be shared for treatment, payment, and hospital operations purposes. Law enforcement is not an allowable reason to disclose patient information without their permission.