The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists • Hacker News Board

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#221

Post by jongjong » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 1:46 AM UTC

This is assuming that the skilled pragmatists are even employed to begin with. What I'm seeing is that they've been steadily getting pushed out of the industry. There have been many highly skilled open source devs who left the industry because they can't deal with the bureaucracy and nonsense anymore.

The dispassionate, status-oriented bureaucrat seems to have the upper hand; and they appear to have the majority necessary to get their way in the centers of power.

We have a bad case of the blind leading the visionaries.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#222

Post by lazyasciiart » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 2:08 AM UTC

jbm wrote: post #199

lazyasciiart wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s how salesforce did it. One way you can tell how terribly uninformed the layoff choices were is that there were people who were actually rehired immediately.

When I got laid off at SFDC, I found out that they wanted to get rid of certain localities. Heroku was always a remote friendly place, which apparently irritated some of the new Microsoft-derived management; the story I heard was they wanted to consolidate Canada's talent in my branch in Toronto and Vancouver. I'm glad I left as I got a large pay raise and didn't have to move to Toronto; but I wouldn't say it was ran…

> but I wouldn't say it was random, just based on metrics unrelated to the individual's contribution.

You're right, it could have been based on the number of letters in their name, or the last digit on the clock when their name came up for a decision. It could have been every employee who hit a certain ratio of salary/years of experience. For the purposes of many employees being laid off, it was completely random. We had a lot of farewell drinks in Seattle, but the offices there aren't going anywhere.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#223

Post by icedchai » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 2:11 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #198

icedchai wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The negative value is the worst. I was working on a project with someone. I'd check in periodically. After a couple weeks, he fesses up and tells me he hasn't been able to get very far, but things are "mostly done", I "just" need to test it for him and integrate it with the rest of the system. By mostly done, he meant the code had no tests and was never even run manually. In fact, the code would not even execute due…

I'm sure there are a surprising number of Brillant Paula Beans[1] still employed in software roles. No idea how you can pass a technical screen and multi-day interview loop without knowing anything about writing code, but it keeps happening. 1: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/the_brillant_paula_bean

I can tell you why. The CEO wanted to "hire quickly" for a project that did not even go live until 3 months after the original fake deadline. He ignored any suggestions that we keep looking at other candidates, then left for a different job several months later.

PS. I love TheDailyWTF!

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#224

Post by khana » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 2:17 AM UTC

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Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#225

Post by cebert » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 2:49 AM UTC

I can appreciate the some of the frustrations many here raise with corporate work culture. However, in reality, you need to sell the value you bring. If you see more junior folk or good folk who don’t highlight their own value, help bring visibility. If you don’t highlight your value and peers you appreciate, you risk it not being recognized. Don’t let the good people lose out in the game. Help get good people promoted and into positions of power.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#226

Post by erikerikson » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 3:19 AM UTC

7789123 wrote: post #175

erikerikson wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A co-op only attenuates to employees. There are better options. Example: FairShares Commons

>A co-op only attenuates to employees. There are better options. Example: FairShares Commons I am very interested in learning about these types of models. I don't know what search terms would get me there, and/or any lists of these types of models that have been curated. Could you suggest anything that would expedite researching this?

I'm sorry that I don't have a good index or personal awareness to share. Boyd's book linked in a peer response is a source but otherwise I can only offer that B-Corps [0] or Benefit Corps are the formally/legally recognized entry into space. A structure like the FairShares Common is a sophistication, based on the articles of incorporation above and beyond establishing legal obligations to a purpose (as is part of B-Corp incorporation). It is, itself, based on the FairShares [1] and Commons ideas [2].

[0] https://www.bcorporation.net/en-us/ [1] https://www.fairshares.coop/fairshares-model/ [2] https://p2pfoundation.net/the-p2p-foundation/about-the-p2p-f...

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#227

Post by NateEag » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 3:28 AM UTC

lucianbr wrote: post #103

NateEag wrote: post #63

This is an appealing narrative without evidence. How does the author know Marias make up the majority of most companies? Where's the data supporting that claim? It may be true - it sounds plausible to those of us who've been a Maria in the salt mines of a dysfunctional company. It appeals to us to think we're the hidden gems the company needs to invest in. Something being appealing doesn't make it true, though, even…

There's some useful insight here even if the percents are wrong. Whatever the numbers, even if 10% are Marias, they're still an untapped resource, if not "the biggest". And the fact that some of us have been this person proves the percentage is not zero. Feels like you found a small inaccuracy in the text, and jumped up "Aha! Everything you said is wrong!". Also an appealing narrative.

> There's some useful insight here even if the percents are wrong. Whatever the numbers, even if 10% are Marias, they're still an untapped resource, if not "the biggest". And the fact that some of us have been this person proves the percentage is not zero.

All very fair and good points.

The author does make a strong claim, though, and I'm asking if there's evidence to back it up.

I probably wouldn't if they'd written "Some people are underused by their companies because they're Marias," which is a much smaller claim but still a perfectly fine basis for moving on to a discussion of how to get more value from those employees.

> Feels like you found a small inaccuracy in the text, and jumped up "Aha! Everything you said is wrong!". Also an appealing narrative.

Would you show me where you see this? I reread what I wrote and I'm not finding that, but maybe I'm just missing it.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#228

Post by gunsle » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 4:16 AM UTC

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #116

switchbak wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Many of us are working hard, trying to get real work done. And spending 20-40 mins a day checking Hacker News :) Seriously though, don’t you feel bad by not pulling your weight? Someone has to get your work done.

You're applying emotion to the cold calculus of economics. I'm supplying an acceptable amount of labor to my boss (evident by the fact that my boss hasn't fired/complained to me) in exchange for an acceptable amount of money (evident by the fact that I haven't quit). We're all on salary. Unless whatever I'm working on is going to boost my options enough to make it worth my while (it won't), there's no reason to break…

Exactly. If my boss is happy with my output, and work is still getting done on time, why does it matter how many hours I actually work? I don’t get paid more for going above and beyond. The only reward for busting your ass in corporate America is more work. It’s a depressing reality but it’s the truth.

Why should I bust my ass, just to get an extra percentage point on my yearly raise? I can work 30 hours a week and get 4%, or 60 hours and get 5%. The math just doesn’t make sense unless you’re working for a company you either founded, have significant equity in, or there’s some kind of profit sharing mechanism that actually results in a substantial amount of money.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#229

Post by mulmen » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 4:20 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #194

mulmen wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok then why do we still have recruiters and HR? If their job is impossible why do we pay them to pretend otherwise? If people aren’t fungible why do we force them into fungible roles? If the reality is that people are fungible and leadership is just out of touch and made bad decisions then they’re the ones that should be canned. Hiring people is expensive. Firing people is expensive. Reorganizing people requires comp…

You're cutting a division. You're cutting a project. Yeah, if you were hiring into a new position, you might hire some of the people you're cutting. But you probably aren't. So, yeah, you might try to retain some specific people but you mostly aren't interested in doing a large-scal rewizzle which will probably disrupt things even more than the layoff is already going to do.

Then why hire at all? If it’s all a project or disposable division just hire temps and contractors.

Re: The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

#230

Post by gunsle » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 4:22 AM UTC

therealdrag0 wrote: post #208

K0balt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get the work done that the position requires. If you can do that in a couple of hours, I see no incentive whatsoever for most employees to increase productivity beyond the requirement for the position plus maybe some minor stuff that won’t be enough to encourage additional responsibilities. If they want more than that, employers should pay significantly more than their competitors for those services, or significa…

A lot of promotion and salary increases comes from demonstrating your growing and operating towards the next level. Doing the minimum isn’t doing yourself any favors if you have any aspirations at all. That’s fine for those who knowingly make that decision, but there are consequences.

This simply isn’t the case in the vast majority of companies, and honestly just seems kind of naive. Corporate America is a game of politics. Yeah working hard always looks good, but the guy who gets the promotion is the guy your boss plays golf with, not the guy who works 60 hours a week out of some idealistic obligation.