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Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

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Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it was the breakup of AT&T on Jan 1, 1982 (the result of a suit started in 1974). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System

Which is nuts. The DoJ needs to take a battle ax to Ticketmaster to set an example. They need to prove that they are still willing and able to throw down if necessary. TM is a disposable target, they don't build anything critical to the economy or national security. They could be deleted from the earth and dozens of replacements would spring up in a week. TM is so hated that, if the DoJ goes for the jugular and misse…

> Monopolies aren't just anti-consumer. They can strangle the country's ability to innovate and compete in a global marketplace.

This. As a small business owner I'm much more interested in the effects of monopoly on industries than on consumers. After all, most people have jobs, right? They feel the effects of monopoly at work, as well as at home.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#222

Related: https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/explosive-new-documents-u... ("BIG by Matt Stoller: Explosive New Documents Unearthed On Live Nation/Ticketmaster")

[flagged]

Please don't. We want HN to be a place for human comments, not generated ones.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#223
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had to guess, it is probably in their fine print, and the ability to pay for a refund would be a further refutation in a chargeback case. That the ticket could not be sold via their system for whatever reason, is not a 'simple' act, although TBH maybe they should write to the DOJ or whatever... given some of the other stuff they've been caught doing, it would not at all surprise me to see some `if (!ticket.HadRe…

You may win the judgement in small claims court, but how will you collect? That is another dilemma.

Isn't this where the hilarious "sheriff showed up at the office, graciously giving them 30 minutes to cut a check before he started to confiscate the chairs" stories come from?

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#224

I used to work in this space. If the DOJ breaks up live nation the only group who gets screwed is the consumer. The sort of artist who is big enough to use live nation also wants a pay day for going on tour. They want the door, they want to sell their merch, they want a cut of the 20$ beer you buy. There might be 1 or 2 artist left who dont want to see you gouged on the ticket but that might not even be true any more…

Even if they don't break them up, there needs to be some limits and regulations as this scene is getting obscene:

1. I thought scalping was illegal? Maybe that has changed, or maybe there's a big loophole, but most of the big ticketing apps have essentially legalized scalping and they even have conventions for their "partners" (scalpers) where they entertain them and teach them how to buy and sell more tickets. Since the ticketing apps take massive fees on each ticket, more secondary sales benefits the ticketing company even more.

2. If scalping is still illegal, there needs to be a limit on the price hike for secondary sales. Clearly, someone who bought 50 tickets to a concert was not planning to use them all. This is a scalper. Since they could create many different accounts, it's hard to determine who is a scalper and who isn't. Either way, if you can't go to the concert and you want to resell them, then a max increase for your time to relist the tickets is fair for everyone.

3. There needs to be a limit on service fees. There's no reason why the service fee for selling an online ticket should be $50 PER TICKET. Sure, it's not always that high, but that's how high I've seen it in the past couple years. I can ship a cell phone across the country in 5 days for $5 and it is profitable for the service provider. There's no reason the efforts to furnish a digital ticket should cost more than that. It's clearly a hidden fee that is there as an additional profit center.

4. Not only do the ticket primary ticketing companies own the primary sales, they also own the secondary sales. So, for example, they can take a $30 fee PER TICKET on the primary sales and then they also get that $50 PER TICKET fee on the secondary sale of each same ticket. Then if that ticket gets sold again, they can get another $50 PER TICKET. It's absolutely insane.

5. Most major venues have exclusive deals with the major ticketing companies. So, if a large band/artist wants to play at a large venue and they don't want to charge their fans huge fees or allow scalping, they have no choice -- that venue has signed a deal and the artist has to use the venue's ticketing partner.

6. Some tickets aren't sent until just days before the event. If I bought tickets today, and they're charging me a $50 digital ticket fee, those tickets should be available to me immediately. Again, I can ship a cell phone across the country in 5 days for $5, there's no reason digital tickets should be withheld for months when a $50 fee was paid.

7. There's no transparency. Since it's so obscene, it's time for transparency. At a minimum, I should be able to see how many tickets for each event the person I'm buying the tickets from has sold in the past year.

I know there are more issues, these are just the ones off the top of my head.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#225
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

stadiums are multibillion dollar affairs that take years and lots of public financing. SoFi stadium was $5.5B. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_stadium...

Just being devil's advocate since I also don't necessarily agree that TSwift could build a venue in every market, but there are plenty of large-scale events that use open fields and tents and aren't going to cost billions to setup.

That's how I took it, if she wanted to rent out a field and import equipment, she'd still sell out, and at whatever price she wanted to charge.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Combatting scalping is the easiest thing ever. Just put the name of the attendee on each ticket and if you want to be nice you can have a buyback period until a certain date before the show, where the venue purchases back your ticket if you can't go.

And then what, check the ID of 50k people at the door?

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Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#227

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: kill the secondary market. Live nation should be broken up but a big driver of cost is the scalpers/hedgers who buy out everything and put it on StubHub. Just make all sales final. Check IDs at the door, or use technology to speed up identity verification (mail out rfids, etc). Sucks if you get sick or whatever, just like many things in life where you cancel last minute. It’…

> Just make all sales final. Couldn't you mandate tickets must be sold back to the original seller if you e.g. can't make it to the event? Rather than to a third party?

Or just limit the markup. Since it's all digital, they know the original price of the tickets.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#228

I used to work in this space. If the DOJ breaks up live nation the only group who gets screwed is the consumer. The sort of artist who is big enough to use live nation also wants a pay day for going on tour. They want the door, they want to sell their merch, they want a cut of the 20$ beer you buy. There might be 1 or 2 artist left who dont want to see you gouged on the ticket but that might not even be true any more…

It wouldn't be hard to use some combination of auctions and lotteries to give everyone a legitimate chance at getting a ticket at a reasonable price, and extract maximum money from the people that have money to burn.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#229
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it is in her interest to not deal with Ticketmaster, her business is performing life music. She as her team aren't trying to create work for themselves to screw TM, they want to do what they do. Imagine trying to set up logistics at a venue/church which has never held a large concert before.

Have you ever been to a mega church? They basically are a large concert. Not the 80,000 people kind, but of the size that would rival a decent percentage of touring acts. Lakewood church in Houston has 45,000 attendees a week. I think the church idea is a brilliant TM workaround, until they lock that up too.

Lakewood Church isn't a normal church building. It literally was multi-purpose sports arena (Compaq Center, hosted the Rockets, Areos, and arena football, hosted concerts for ZZ Top, Shakira, Kid Rock, Nelly, AC/DC, Metallica, Prince, Michael Jackson, and many other notable artists) until 2003. So its got more in common in its bones to a sports arena than a typical church.

Also, yes, a giant ultra megachurch like Lakewood might get 45,000 attendees a week. That's usually split between a few services each of which is like 90 minutes long. So like maybe 18k people peak. The average Taylor Swift concert has 72,000 people in the stadium for several hours.

Also, while yes a large church probably has a cafe or something similar, its usually not equipped to provide food for 70,000 people. Nor bathrooms for said 70,000 people, as most people going to the church are once again only there for like 90 minutes instead of several hours.

Re: Justice Department to file antitrust suit against Live Nation

#230
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone is complaining about Ticketmaster but they're still giving them their money, so how are they supposed to respond? They are not being financially incentivized to change their ways. That's a monopoly. The actual product being a luxury item has no bearing on whether a business practice is damaging to consumers. If I have no other choice but to buy tickets for a show through TM, I can't easily avoid them to ch…

You have a choice to not buy the ticket. This is like hating De Beers yet buying diamonds from them. Monopoly on a non-necessity: anyone can opt out. If they are breaking the law, the government should throw the book at them and yea they should have done it long ago, but also people should stop giving money to a company they hate, regardless of whether they are a monopoly.

> You have a choice to not buy the ticket. This is like hating De Beers yet buying diamonds from them. Monopoly on a non-necessity: anyone can opt out.

I fundamentally disagree with your characterization of a consumer's options. Is your argument that I should have the fortitude and knowledge to opt out of coercive economic relationships? Why should I, as the consumer, bare the brunt of the responsibility for holding a corporation responsible for their misdeeds when they utilize their scale and volume to nullified my actions? Do I, as an individual, have any sway over corporate decision making when my fellow consumers do not have that fortitude or knowledge?

I do not agree that every scenario of corporate abuse should fall on the consumer to hold the corporation accountable because we are on unequal footing. This is regardless of the product being offered. These particular companies are taking advantage of shell games to keep customers in the dark on how they are being abused. I, as a simple consumer, withdrawing my dollars have no weight on the scale.

You really should read up on how Pearl Jam tried to fight Ticket Master in the 90s and lost popularity because they were effectively unable to host a show for years.

If Pearl Jam wasn't able to defeat Ticket Master, I find it laughable that you think individual consumers have any more weight in this matter.

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