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SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

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Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#221

Post by sidlls »

madaxe_again wrote: post #110
arrosenberg wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the people who work on public transit aren't interested in having the best public transit system available. They're only interested in keeping it running for as long as possible with zero changes or responsibility. Let me guess, you also think public servants are lazy, overpaid and unskilled? Comments like this belie how many people form opinions of public agencies without having any real experience with go…

Transit employees are not the same people as, nor have the same motivations as the politicians who manage transport agencies. Of course the employees work hard. It’s the vocation they’ve chosen. I’m always amazed by the diligence of TFL and rail employees in the U.K., for instance. No, the guiding principle for the folks at the top is “so, how can I make money for myself out of this before I fail upwards?”. I’d wager…

It wouldn't surprise me. This city is corrupt as hell.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#222

Post by gojomo »

paradox460 wrote: post #133
gojomo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These "sirens" actually need to be able to play spoken announcements - something they did easily since about 2005, before the fumbled 2019-2024 shutdown/upgrade. More history, through January 2022, via JWZ's blog: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2022/01/the-reason-the-tuesday-noon...

Now that you mention it, I do remember hearing the spoken message every Tuesday. Still, a big loudspeaker is even simpler than a classical motorized siren. No moving parts!

Yep! And as of the shutdown over 4 years ago, even if their control plane was insecure, they presumably had 119 working loudspeakers of the proper loudness/weatherproofing/etc.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#223

Post by inferiorhuman »

stctw wrote: post #182
afavour wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s weird that people have this notion about government and only government. There are things governments do well and things they do badly. You could say the exact same thing about private business: businesses go bankrupt every day, wasting time and resources. But no one argues that the very concept of business is “incompetent”.

What is weird about this? If a business fails to perform well, its customers can choose another provider, and the business will have to improve, or else it will fail. If a government fails, what recourse do its "customers" have? Wait a few years for the next election and hope that the truth about the government's poor performance wins out over the propaganda, and hope that the citizens vote in competent, honest offic…

  If a business fails to perform well, its customers can choose another
  provider, and the business will have to improve, or else it will fail.
In this case, mayor Willie Brown (who predates the creation of SFMTA) steered the contracts for the trains and train control to Breda and Alcatel/Thales via Booz Allen Hamilton. Essentially he set up a few generations of sole source contacts for train control as you can see when the MTA was brining the Siemens cars and central subway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6mQfWC1v98

Thing is, Alcatel did fail. Thales scooped them up. From a customer POV Alcatel/Thales failed too. They sold an end of life product that the MTA had to spend millions on just to add a new route (first part of the central subway). They've largely abandoned support of the inductive loop system.

Sure, the MTA could choose another vendor. If memory serves that's where they're stuck currently. Of course this brings out all the anti-government folks despite the main problem being a private vendor (Thales) and private consultants (BAH).

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#224

Post by iancmceachern »

kazinator wrote: post #160
iancmceachern wrote: post #63

I emailed them. I live I'm SF. This is the sake, solved, problem we have in the machine tool world (milling machines, lathes, etc). Similar to old keyboards, you can just buy and use a floppy emulator. They emailed me back, they said that the floppy thing makes a good headline but is really just the tip of the iceberg. It's really the whole system that's like this at every layer, it needs replacing they say.

> like this at every layer It may feel emotionally like this at every layer, but the layers that are not floppy discs are completely different from floppy discs. Other than electrolytics caps (easy replacement items), old electronics is reliable. Moving parts need service; that's life. > needs replacement Not believable without detailed justification. In the present article, someone is literally quoted as everything…

I agree with you.

Good luck getting the city to see it that way. If you'd like help, let me know.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#225

Post by aorloff »

afavour wrote: post #142
aorloff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have some evidence that government is not incompetent ?

It’s weird that people have this notion about government and only government. There are things governments do well and things they do badly. You could say the exact same thing about private business: businesses go bankrupt every day, wasting time and resources. But no one argues that the very concept of business is “incompetent”.

Trust me, it’s not only government.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#226

Post by mschuster91 »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #68
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #4

>Turns out that in 1998, SFMTA had the latest cutting edge technology when they installed their automatic train control system. > "We were the first agency in the U.S. to adopt this particular technology but it was from an era that computers didn't have a hard drive so you have to load the software from floppy disks on to the computer," In 1998, most personal computers already had hard drives [0]. From Wikipedia "The…

Why do I have to do this research instead of the "journalist"? Ratchet the snark back. The journalist was referring to the train control system not home computers in someone's basement. And, yes, twenty five years ago SelTrac was cutting edge. Moving block systems were basically unheard of back then.

> And, yes, twenty five years ago SelTrac was cutting edge. Moving block systems were basically unheard of back then.

Meanwhile in Germany, we have had moving blocks from the late 80s, based on a technology developed from the mid-60's and production-ready by the 70s [1]. Incredibly, the LZB technology never had an actual accident happen in all the time, only three "bare misses" (one of which was pretty spectacular in that it caused a train to pass over a switch rated for 80 km/h with around 185 km/h without derailing).

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linienf%C3%B6rmige_Zugbeeinflu...

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#227

Post by rexpress »

mschuster91 wrote: post #226
inferiorhuman wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I have to do this research instead of the "journalist"? Ratchet the snark back. The journalist was referring to the train control system not home computers in someone's basement. And, yes, twenty five years ago SelTrac was cutting edge. Moving block systems were basically unheard of back then.

> And, yes, twenty five years ago SelTrac was cutting edge. Moving block systems were basically unheard of back then. Meanwhile in Germany, we have had moving blocks from the late 80s, based on a technology developed from the mid-60's and production-ready by the 70s [1]. Incredibly, the LZB technology never had an actual accident happen in all the time, only three "bare misses" (one of which was pretty spectacular in…

SelTrac has been around since the mid 80s, and was originally a German developed product (Standard Elektrik Lorenz) based on LZB technology.

My understanding of LZB is limited, but it appears to be a fixed block system with wayside detection of trains, albeit with shorter blocks than lineside signals would usually have. This is different to SelTrac which is moving block.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#228

Post by mschuster91 »

rexpress wrote: post #227
mschuster91 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And, yes, twenty five years ago SelTrac was cutting edge. Moving block systems were basically unheard of back then. Meanwhile in Germany, we have had moving blocks from the late 80s, based on a technology developed from the mid-60's and production-ready by the 70s [1]. Incredibly, the LZB technology never had an actual accident happen in all the time, only three "bare misses" (one of which was pretty spectacular in…

SelTrac has been around since the mid 80s, and was originally a German developed product (Standard Elektrik Lorenz) based on LZB technology. My understanding of LZB is limited, but it appears to be a fixed block system with wayside detection of trains, albeit with shorter blocks than lineside signals would usually have. This is different to SelTrac which is moving block.

Yeah, LZB internally is based on fixed blocks - but on a system with block lengths down to 50 meters (as in the Stammstrecke München [1]), the difference is negligible.

Crazy to see that SelTrac was actually developed in Berlin, failed there, but is still in widespread use across the world.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammstrecke_(S-Bahn_M%C3%BCnc...

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#229

Post by Workaccount2 »

culopatin wrote: post #141
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you going to find a young engineer who wants to build a dead-end career? I'm sure that if you pay them enough, someone will show up, but most people would rather build skills that will continue to be useful rather than skills that will be useless once an inevitable, sorely needed refresh happens.

I’d do it. I’d like to be the expert that can help them choose or maybe build the replacement.

The replacement will use modern parts and tools, administered by someone who knows modern systems.

There is no use in becoming an expert in an ancient system ridden with proprietary and obsolete parts, just so you can help one city maintain their ancient system. It's even worse than wanting to become a professional fax machine guru.

Re: SFMTA's train system running on floppy disks; city fears 'catastrophic failure'

#230

Post by culopatin »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #229
culopatin wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d do it. I’d like to be the expert that can help them choose or maybe build the replacement.

The replacement will use modern parts and tools, administered by someone who knows modern systems. There is no use in becoming an expert in an ancient system ridden with proprietary and obsolete parts, just so you can help one city maintain their ancient system. It's even worse than wanting to become a professional fax machine guru.

There is no use for so many things… For example there is no use in assuming you know what other people want to do with their time, because you just don’t know. Some people like knowing unique things, or just enjoy learning, or want to be a small hero for a small group of people, or are just curious.
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