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Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

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Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#221

Post by samstave »

brandensilva wrote: post #120
eschatology wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking if we could directly tap and pump fresh cerebrospinal fluid and eliminate sleep

It seems neat in theory but I imagine the brain having to operate an additional 8 hours a day might actually accelerate mental decline faster as we age given you would be using it 1/3 more but it is an interesting concept.

Or you just have a slow continuous flow, where the pumping is controlled by the heartbeat - meaning that whatever is pumping the BrainWash 9000(TM) is triggered by the impulses to the heart - however there is some monitoring system which also can slow or increase B9 as needed.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#222

Post by quesera »

theaussiestew wrote: post #202
quesera wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reflexively, that doesn't make sense. I cannot imagine perceiving ionic CSF flow with my eyes. But thinking about it more, maybe there is something to it? I'm wholly unqualified to speculate here, but I know computers and computers are exactly the same as everything in the real world, so let's go! ... - When restful and with my eyes closed, I definitely "see" waves move across my field of vision. My eyes see "black"…

I deliberately didn't use the word "see" when phrasing my response. I used the word observed because it was an observation, not a seeing. And I'm not describing a flow of vague amorphous whitish material, I know what you're talking about and I'm not describing that. I tried to observe the phenomena yesterday again and couldn't observe it but it was very specifically this in the past: spherical orbs of white light exp…

I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. I used the word "perceive" in response to your comment, and only used "see" for the description of my personal observations.

I didn't downvote it, but I wasn't sure I understood your first comment. Others might have also been confused.

Anyway, it's all fascinating to me. I am inadequately schooled to know what is a novel observation, but when I hear experts talk the common theme is how little we really understand about the brain. Obviously, my "little" and their "little" are very different things.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#223

Post by jannyfer »

robg wrote: post #87

If you have any doubts about sleep quantity and quality, worth reading about the glymphatic nervous system, which is so newly discovered likely you didn’t learn about it in school. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636982/ In short it explains, mechanistically, why poor sleep affects daily cognition, mental health, and age-related declines. Robust scientific theories explain more of the evidence. The glym…

I must be spending too much time on HN. I recognize this exact comment from a month ago.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#224

Post by quesera »

Nemi wrote: post #180
quesera wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reflexively, that doesn't make sense. I cannot imagine perceiving ionic CSF flow with my eyes. But thinking about it more, maybe there is something to it? I'm wholly unqualified to speculate here, but I know computers and computers are exactly the same as everything in the real world, so let's go! ... - When restful and with my eyes closed, I definitely "see" waves move across my field of vision. My eyes see "black"…

Ok, I have never told anyone this, but I also sometimes wake up and “see” like a waterfall effect over my vision. It only happens very rarely and only for less than a minute after I get woken from a deep sleep. It is not unlike a moving sensation or water moving over my eyes. I realized that it is probably fluid moving over my visual cortex and being interpreted as vision. Seems weird and I have nothing to back it up…

I may have seen that as well -- is it vaguely like the visual noise you see when coming out of anaesthesia or after having passed out?

I've always assumed it is caused by ~"static in the visual cortex", while your interpreter "syncs up" / "tunes in" to the usual signal.

I'm sure that's another tortured computation/communication analogy, but it's all I got.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#225

Post by username135 »

magicalhippo wrote: post #155
robg wrote: post #87

If you have any doubts about sleep quantity and quality, worth reading about the glymphatic nervous system, which is so newly discovered likely you didn’t learn about it in school. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636982/ In short it explains, mechanistically, why poor sleep affects daily cognition, mental health, and age-related declines. Robust scientific theories explain more of the evidence. The glym…

It makes me sad as my SO struggles a lot with sleep. It's been years since she's had a good nights sleep. Sadly her issues are mostly psychologically rooted due to past trauma, while all the treatments seem to be geared towards "simple" physical issues. She's tried contacting various sleep clinics here and they've all said they can't help. She struggles a lot with falling asleep, she's exceptionally sensitive to soun…

Edibles have been a godsend to me. Have you guys tried them?

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#226

Post by pedalpete »

VinLucero wrote: post #128

I wonder if anyone has done a study yet on how the Glymphatic nervous system is impacted by rTMS (repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation) instead of drugs (pharmacological solutions). Anyone deep into this field around?

We're in the field, but with auditory stimulation, not rTMS.

Glymphatic System activity is linked to the synchronous firing of neurons that define slow-wave sleep.

If you interrupt the brain near the peak of a slow wave, the brain response is to increase this synchronous firing, increasing delta power, and the flushing of the glymphatic system.

Monash University here in Australia is looking into the impact this may have on Alzheimer's prevention.

There isn't a drug that I'm aware of that is as effective.

You can do what we do with rTMS, light stimulation, haptics, etc. it's more about interrupting the brain than it is creating a slow-wave, as far as everything I am aware of in the current literature.

We link to a few studies on our website https://affectablesleep.com - I'll be posting more links soon (we just launched our re-brand 2 days ago).

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#227

Post by pedalpete »

ineedaj0b wrote: post #21

We need to figure out what activity or thought creates waves most similar to the cleaning function. Maybe it’s dreaming? Dreaming by my experience is tedious and not restful… I have 4-6 dreams every night and never feel like I’m truly asleep. Shouldn’t be hard to figure out with an EKG and a decent graph to see what your aiming for.

It is not dreaming.

The "waves" don't exist in the brain - which is why I'm surprised this title survived publication.

The wave is the electrical activity we measure as a result of the synchronous firing of neurons which is the hallmark of deep sleep.

The slow-wave is linked to the glymphatic flush.

We can't create slow-waves, however, we can increase their power (more synchronous firing).

This is known science, and we've been working to commercialize it for the last 4 years. Getting close. https://affectablesleep.com

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#228

Post by pedalpete »

russellbeattie wrote: post #9

So, if we could induce those brain waves we wouldn't need sleep? Maybe in the future our AirPods will have a "rejuvenate" feature which plays tones that cause sleep like brain waves to go through and clean out our neurons. Probably not... I think our brains are like LLMs. We train them on sensory input we perceive over time, building up a data model that is unique to us. The models may generate similar results, but e…

We don't know how to induce slow-waves yet, but lots of research around how we can increase the function.

The mechanism is very not unique. Unlike other neuronal activity, the slow-waves are synchronous firing of neurons, and almost all brains respond to interruptions 30 degrees off the peak of the wave.

It's much more health engineering than much of the medicine I'm aware of.

We've been working on this for the last 4 years at https://affectablesleep.com

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#229

Post by pedalpete »

robg wrote: post #147
moffkalast wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if eventually once this is more thoroughly researched there could be a way to induce constant cleaning instead of having to do it while unconscious at night? Or at least reduce the hours required. If we could solve this we could just stay awake perpetually and instantly gain a 30% longer lifespan as it were.

More efficient sleep is possible with ultrasound. But keep in mind that the glymphatic system seems to expand as other systems contract. The waves are tied to brain activity slowing down, can’t have one without the other. That said, could intersperse active times of the day with naps. But naps alone don’t seem sufficient as good sleep.

The waves are actually tied to the synchronous firing of neurons which is the hallmark of deep sleep.

Re: Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice

#230

Post by ifyoubuildit »

jannyfer wrote: post #223
robg wrote: post #87

If you have any doubts about sleep quantity and quality, worth reading about the glymphatic nervous system, which is so newly discovered likely you didn’t learn about it in school. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636982/ In short it explains, mechanistically, why poor sleep affects daily cognition, mental health, and age-related declines. Robust scientific theories explain more of the evidence. The glym…

I must be spending too much time on HN. I recognize this exact comment from a month ago.

I was thinking the same thing, but I wasn't sure how long ago it was.
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