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Eloquent JavaScript 4th edition (2024)

eloquentjavascript.net

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Re: Eloquent JavaScript 4th edition (2024)

#221

Post by cal85 »

shanusmagnus wrote: post #169
Sn0wCoder wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One hundred percent agree on both this book and the “You don’t know JavaScript”. Both are free (search Kyle Simpson GitHub). I ended up buying the YDKJ first edition paperbacks but see the second edition of all of them are done or a work in progress. EJs is the one I tell my students to start with as IMO is more of a programming book that just happens to us JS. I can tell the ones that read it (it’s optional) and the…

> Note the YDKJ books can come off as very ‘only my opinion is the right one’ kind of like JS the good parts I got the same feeling and it's very off-putting. KS seems like a dick. It's ironic that so much of his dickishness seems to be reacting against what he takes as Doug Crockford's dickishness. Ah the irony.

He did a day workshop at my old company about 10 years ago. He did come off as a dick, and very opinionated, but I really liked his no-stone-unturned approach, and ended up buying a few of the books when they came out later, and I got so much good stuff from reading them. I personally disagree with many of his opinions and have no problem with this at all; he covers everything (including parts of the language he clearly hates) in such detail that I can form my own dissenting opinions whenever I want. If anything, it’s a good thing that he is so openly opinionated - it makes it easier for me to pay attention and prompts me to ‘argue back’ and form my own (better) opinions, compared to just reading dry material that always tries to remain neutral and void of feeling. The only problem with opinionated code writers is if they actually fail to cover the stuff they don’t like. KS covers it all, with relish, often bitterly. I love it. Same for Doug Crockford. Always found him hilariously opinionated, often to the point that he was clearly fighting against reality, and yet I learned a ton by reading the cantankerous old git.

Re: Eloquent JavaScript 4th edition (2024)

#222

Post by svat »

ricardobeat wrote: post #201
svat wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does it break down? Maybe if one is thinking of boxes, going by "a change to the value of a "? The book says: > When a binding points at a value, that does not mean it is tied to that value forever. The = operator can be used at any time on existing bindings to disconnect them from their current value and have them point to a new one In this case: let a = 22; The binding a points to the value 22. let b =…

Have you given any kind of training or lessons in programming (honest question)? Everything can break down! This is exactly what I’m talking about: > The binding b points to the same value that a points to It may look obvious to you , but someone will interpret “the same value” as literally the same. So they might expect a change in a to reflect on b. Whereas if you tell them the “a box contains 22” and “the b box al…

> Have you given any kind of training or lessons in programming (honest question)? Everything can break down!

I have actually, so I understand what you mean, that all sorts of confusions are possible no matter what. I agree with you on that part; I just disagree that the “boxes” metaphor is something that is necessary or “needed later” (what I understood from the wording “This method spares the reader one step, but might cause confusion once they face problems that require that understanding” or “breaks down”).

Yes, the student needs to understand that “let b = a” assigns to b the value of a, and does not make b a permanent alias for a. To some students that misconception may never arise, but to others it might and that is something to watch out for. (This is the part explained here for instance: https://nedbatchelder.com/text/names1.html#:~:text=I%E2%80%9... — sorry if you cannot see the highlighted part e.g. if you're using Firefox (https://caniuse.com/url-scroll-to-text-fragment), look before and after "Reassigning one of them".) But if you explain this as “the a box contains 22” and “the b box also contains 22”, this is an understanding that only applies to primitive values and therefore will break down pretty soon and cause confusion (given how widely non-primitive values are used in JS/Python/etc), while if you say that “let b = a” makes the “b tentacle” point to the value that the “a tentacle” points to, this is a uniform understanding that bypasses the incomplete “boxes” understanding. With the understanding that names are one kind of thing and values are another, and names can only point to values (not to other names), there is no problem with “the same value” being interpreted as literally the same: it is literally the same value (a Platonic ideal “22” that lives out there and that both a and b point to), and a re-assignment like a = 23 does not change the value (the notion of changing a value would not even arise without the boxes metaphor, as value 22 and value 23 are simply different things on the values side).

But I guess ultimately this is an empirical matter: we can try the different paths on different sets of students and over time see which one takes better. My intuition is that the “tentacles” metaphor is just as easy to understand as “boxes” without the latter's problems (there are risks common to both, e.g. "let b = a" neither makes the b tentacle point to a itself, nor does it put the a box inside the b box), but until we actually try it out (I have not tried to compare), I guess we just have different intuitions for now. :-)

Re: Eloquent JavaScript 4th edition (2024)

#223

Post by bigtunacan »

shanusmagnus wrote: post #169
Sn0wCoder wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One hundred percent agree on both this book and the “You don’t know JavaScript”. Both are free (search Kyle Simpson GitHub). I ended up buying the YDKJ first edition paperbacks but see the second edition of all of them are done or a work in progress. EJs is the one I tell my students to start with as IMO is more of a programming book that just happens to us JS. I can tell the ones that read it (it’s optional) and the…

> Note the YDKJ books can come off as very ‘only my opinion is the right one’ kind of like JS the good parts I got the same feeling and it's very off-putting. KS seems like a dick. It's ironic that so much of his dickishness seems to be reacting against what he takes as Doug Crockford's dickishness. Ah the irony.

I know Kyle and he is very opinionated and adheres very tightly to his set of beliefs. I think this can rub some people the wrong way and maybe this leads to the belief that he is a dick.

From my personal experience I think he's actually a really nice guy. He's also been unemployed for quite a while now and seems to be struggling with something. Doesn't seem very kind to kick him while he's down even if it's a virtual kicking.

Re: Eloquent JavaScript 4th edition (2024)

#225

Post by lelanthran »

irrational wrote: post #204
matt_j wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is debunked to some extent. Veritasium made a good video about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhgwIhB58PA Personally I find a multi-pronged approach is necessary to really learn anything. Read it. Read it again. Visual guides are helpful. Work some examples. Make some mistakes, debug them, find the corner cases, write tests. Eventually when I've poked around the material for a while it starts to bed in. Thr…

Are you saying that I can learn equally well from reading as well as audio sources and, despite 50+ years of personal experience, I am wrong?

Could be. After 40+ years of thinking I learn better from books I changed my mind after seeing one of Freya Holmer's videos.

I can definitely learn faster from a video as long as there are no talk heads in it, and only content.

Trouble is, all the instructional videos I had tried up to that point were crap. I can't think of even one highly recommended programming instruction video that is any good for me.

Re: Eloquent JavaScript 4th edition (2024)

#227

Post by mixmastamyk »

boringuser2 wrote: post #207

This book took me from having nothing -- literally being a political science major grocery store employee -- to making 2xx,xxx YOY. It was challenging and made me question whether or not I had it in me to code. Turns out, I could, and, vis-a-vis my peers, exceptionally well. Well, I took me, but this book was my first real introduction to computer science. Funnily enough, I didn't then and don't now personally care f…

Where are you making $200k+ with limited experience and do you need a senior partner? :-D

Re: Eloquent JavaScript 4th edition (2024)

#228

Post by boringuser2 »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #227
boringuser2 wrote: post #207

This book took me from having nothing -- literally being a political science major grocery store employee -- to making 2xx,xxx YOY. It was challenging and made me question whether or not I had it in me to code. Turns out, I could, and, vis-a-vis my peers, exceptionally well. Well, I took me, but this book was my first real introduction to computer science. Funnily enough, I didn't then and don't now personally care f…

Where are you making $200k+ with limited experience and do you need a senior partner? :-D

6 years is sufficient experience, and we're good, thanks!

Re: Eloquent JavaScript 4th edition (2024)

#229

Post by boringuser2 »

marijn wrote: post #219
boringuser2 wrote: post #207

This book took me from having nothing -- literally being a political science major grocery store employee -- to making 2xx,xxx YOY. It was challenging and made me question whether or not I had it in me to code. Turns out, I could, and, vis-a-vis my peers, exceptionally well. Well, I took me, but this book was my first real introduction to computer science. Funnily enough, I didn't then and don't now personally care f…

You're welcome

Thumbs up emoji.

Re: Eloquent JavaScript 4th edition (2024)

#230

Post by [deleted] »

msoad wrote: post #3

This is the book that helped me really understand JavaScript. Really great content and I can't thank Marjin enough for putting this out there for free. Also how this person is so productive? I really would love to read on how he manages his time and priorities.

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