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Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

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Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#221

Post by t-3 »

ralphist wrote: post #117
sandreas wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't... You can see this in an open source JavaScript implementation of kinetic scrolling by Apple called PastryKit[3] using a magic number momentum * 0.9. The problem is, that on modern Linux environments, there is no clear responsibility for where scroll handling code belongs. Especially Kinetic / Inertial scrolling is handled way different than in macOS. There is libinput (for handling and redirecting input ev…

> I filed an issue[1] on cosmic in hope they'll get it right, but I don't have too high hopes that this is of much interest. That's insane but you're right. Firefox on Ubuntu had awful trackpad scrolling 10 years ago and it's still bad. How do you make an OS where the main pointing device on half of the market sucks and assign that low priority?

The pointing device doesn't suck, just the defaults (and probably the graphical configuration tools - I always use CLI and editing config files but most open-source GUIs are horrible). If you're willing to spend 5-10 minutes tweaking, you can get exactly the same performance or better just by playing around with some settings.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#222

Post by Sammi »

t-3 wrote: post #221
ralphist wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I filed an issue[1] on cosmic in hope they'll get it right, but I don't have too high hopes that this is of much interest. That's insane but you're right. Firefox on Ubuntu had awful trackpad scrolling 10 years ago and it's still bad. How do you make an OS where the main pointing device on half of the market sucks and assign that low priority?

The pointing device doesn't suck, just the defaults (and probably the graphical configuration tools - I always use CLI and editing config files but most open-source GUIs are horrible). If you're willing to spend 5-10 minutes tweaking, you can get exactly the same performance or better just by playing around with some settings.

This doesn't help me. I have zero confidence I can do any of this.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#223

Post by Sammi »

LorenDB wrote: post #90

I'm confused what this is trying to achieve. In my four years of Linux usage, I have had no complaints about the touchpad[0]. [0] Other than the issue where sometimes my touchpad requires an extra finger touch to work after resuming from suspend, but I have a hunch that is a hardware/firmware issue. In fact, I seem to recall that happening on a Windows machine once.

Have you lived with a Macbook for a while? People who do generally feel pain when using any other trackpad afterwards. They are just much better. Feel more responsive. It becomes second nature and ingrained in your nerve pathways. Other trackpads feel wrong after getting used to a Macbook trackpad. They accelerate wrong.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#224

Post by int_19h »

TonyTrapp wrote: post #93
nerdjon wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interesting thing to think about, I have friends that use Windows that are shocked that I willingly chose to get an external trackpad when I use my Mac as desktop. Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like w…

> Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like without even thinking about it while I was re-reading this comment, I had fingers just resting on my trackpad. I think I'll never "get" drag&drop on MacBook touchpads. Ever…

On laptops with physical left/right buttons, it's as easy and straightforward as it is with the mouse. Thinkpads would be one prominent example.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#225

Post by sandreas »

t-3 wrote: post #221
ralphist wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I filed an issue[1] on cosmic in hope they'll get it right, but I don't have too high hopes that this is of much interest. That's insane but you're right. Firefox on Ubuntu had awful trackpad scrolling 10 years ago and it's still bad. How do you make an OS where the main pointing device on half of the market sucks and assign that low priority?

The pointing device doesn't suck, just the defaults (and probably the graphical configuration tools - I always use CLI and editing config files but most open-source GUIs are horrible). If you're willing to spend 5-10 minutes tweaking, you can get exactly the same performance or better just by playing around with some settings.

You're right, after tinkering around I also found settings that are ok. But that's only part of it. There are so many things that just work better on macOS, e.g. the "tap-to-stop" or "vertical-scrolling".

I also think that the App developers should not have to shoulder this. App developers have way better things to do than care about touchpad events... like fixing issues and developing new features. I don't see where smooth scrolling should be an App feature...

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#226

Post by jmole »

sandreas wrote: post #211
tannhaeuser wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth mentioning that before libinput, the synapse driver handled kinetic scroll very well IMO, but AIU the developers removed the device-specific coefficients and other parameters because they said it couldn't be tested and became a mess or something. I remember looking at my Linux (Wayland, gnome3) notebook in anticipation of physical pain, at which point I switched to Mac OS permanently. To this date, I still don'…

While is may be true from a user perspective, this "kinetic scrolling simulation" was removed, because it could lead to unexpected behaviour. Example: If you where scrolling in a window, the driver kept sending scroll events for a short time to simulate kinetic scrolling. Now, if you moved the cursor to another window, the other window started scrolling, because of the simulated events. This is not the case on macOS.…

> Now, if you moved the cursor to another window, the other window started scrolling, because of the simulated events.

This is such a trivial thing to fix, you just stop sending scroll events when the cursor moves.

Peter has done a great job on libinput for the most part, but he is 100% wrong about inertial scrolling (and button remapping, among a few other things).

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#227

Post by sandreas »

jmole wrote: post #226
sandreas wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While is may be true from a user perspective, this "kinetic scrolling simulation" was removed, because it could lead to unexpected behaviour. Example: If you where scrolling in a window, the driver kept sending scroll events for a short time to simulate kinetic scrolling. Now, if you moved the cursor to another window, the other window started scrolling, because of the simulated events. This is not the case on macOS.…

> Now, if you moved the cursor to another window, the other window started scrolling, because of the simulated events. This is such a trivial thing to fix, you just stop sending scroll events when the cursor moves. Peter has done a great job on libinput for the most part, but he is 100% wrong about inertial scrolling (and button remapping, among a few other things).

> Peter has done a great job on libinput for the most part, but he is 100% wrong about inertial scrolling (and button remapping, among a few other things).

Maybe you're right. However, this should not about individual persons / projects... this is more about that I'm still uncertain, why so many experts cannot get this thing right by just working together finding a suitable solution :-) There must by more than one way of solving this.

I'd argue that he is right about the fact, that the "driver" (libinput) should not send "simulated" events, that are not really there. Whereas the cursor movement should defintely stop the scrolling behaviour, the driver is not the place to care about this, I think it is more a compositor / window manager thing, but I'm not an expert.

However, if he would implement an opt in solution (2 config options) for lets say:

  libinput.simulateKineticScrolling=1
  libinput.kineticScrollingSpeed=0.22
a lot of people would be really happy, but this probably is a really dirty hack.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#228

Post by adesanmi »

jxdxbx wrote: post #21
RIMR wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, the multitouch magic mouse is pretty intuitive when you get used to it. Depending on what you do, it could be an excellent daily driver, but it does tend to have some limitations that can make it a non-starter...

I can’t right click on them. I guess you have to raise up your fingers from the left side? I just found that to be a dealbreaker. I’ve had to use them for work and I turn them into one-button mice with scrolling. The scrolling is excellent, I like low-profile mice, and I don’t mind the charger port location. But I need to right click!

Ctrl+click. I find it more intuitive than right clicking personally.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#229

Post by bheadmaster »

IshKebab wrote: post #142
bheadmaster wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they will have a more expensive laptop with nothing to show for it on the label, and customers will buy cheaper ones with "the same specs". You can't really put "better touchpad" on a label... or can you?

This whole thread is about people buying Macs because they have great touchpads (and I agree with that - I also would never buy anything else because of the touchpad). Apple doesn't put "better touchpad" on their labels either. It's just very very obvious that they're better.

> Apple doesn't put "better touchpad" on their labels either. It's just very very obvious that they're better.

Exactly. Everyone knows Apple has better touchpad, but nobody knows that about some random PC manufacturer. How will they signal that he has better touchpad in order to justify the higher price?

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#230

Post by Sakos »

fernmyth wrote: post #190
nerdjon wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you mention the touchpad being too small, are you trying to drag and drop with one finger or multiple? What I always just do is click with my thumb and move around with my other fingers. As long as my thumb stays down it stays selected. Then just a few quick swipes with my finger gets whatever it is I am selecting where I want to go. Same works for windows and anything you click and drag. Admittedly there is a…

This works on my system76 lemur pro 10 with pop!_os: - click and hold on the touchpad with thumb - swipe with another finger to drag around. Multiple, disjoint strokes work, so there's nothing special about switching fingers It would be a bit uncomfortable to do for long periods, since my thumb has to hold down with clicking force.

On that note, why is this possible on iOS but not Android? It's even possible to pick up several icons on the homescreen and then move them to a different screen with your other fingers. Android is a nightmare by comparison.
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