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German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

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Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#221

Post by Ringz »

Beijinger wrote: post #207
Ringz wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> INOVA in Northern Virginia charges $3000 for an uncomplicated vaginal birth. They have a code which rolls up many services into that code. There are additional in-hospital expenses such as the newborn hearing test which aggregate to about $400. Free of charge in Germany > If you have insurance your maximum cost out of pocket for the calendar year is between 5 and 15 thousand dollars (insurance covers everything abo…

"In Germany, insurance covers everything over 0€. " Yes. But you wait >6 months to see a specialist. And Germany has not the same level of health care than the US. Sorry to break the news to you.

Not 6 months: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39395329

Yes, Germany has not the same level of health care. Most of the time it’s better than the US. According to studies and data. All sources are not from Germany:

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality...

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-h...

„Germany would have tied Switzerland had we averaged our rankings of the nations instead of using head-to-head matchups in a bracket system (Switzerland eliminated Germany in the first round). It’s an example of how close the voting was.“

Wow!

Sorry to break the news to you.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#222

Post by Beijinger »

Ringz wrote: post #221
Beijinger wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In Germany, insurance covers everything over 0€. " Yes. But you wait >6 months to see a specialist. And Germany has not the same level of health care than the US. Sorry to break the news to you.

Not 6 months: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39395329 Yes, Germany has not the same level of health care. Most of the time it’s better than the US. According to studies and data. All sources are not from Germany: https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality... https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2... https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-h... „Germany…

"Not 6 months"

I don't care what the internet says. I know from my own experience it is 6 months, at least for some categories. Some sources say 30 days. A joke! I could call the office of my average XYZ doctor now and ask. And it will be 6 months, for sure.

"Most of the time it’s better than the US. "

The US has a lower live expectancy. Whatever the reasons may be. While this is concerning and not good, as long as you have a good insurance, Germany can not match the standard of US health care. Trust me on that one. With dentists it may be a different thing.

Yes, if you are poor or unemployed, your access to health care is likely much better than in the USA. But otherwise, not so much.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#223

Post by cycomanic »

Nextgrid wrote: post #202
graemep wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK tax system (like many others) is not as fair or progressive as it is presented to be. 1. NI means that the real standard rate on earned income is substantially higher than the "income tax" rate. it is also not fair that unearned income is exempt from it. 2. Lots of purchase taxes, which are disproportionately paid by people with moderate incomes. People on low incomes spend a higher proportion in necessities w…

> seem not to realise how things operate in most other developed countries Genuine question, what do other countries do differently? The way I see it (and described in my original comment) is that the underlying factors behind the decline of government services (no accountability, no incentive to use tax money efficiently) are common across many countries. Some countries may get away with it for now because they're s…

I'd argue that the decline in quality of services as been a phenomenon across many western countries and to significant degree been caused by a economic idiology and a deliberate campaign with a goal of privatisation of many public goods, started in the 1980s.

Essentially funding to services are being reduced to pay for tax reductions, until at some point the quality declines significantly, which is taken as the argument that private enterprise would deliver a much better service at lower cost. Services/infrastructure are then sold and a low price and after a short while costs for services go up, but because they are now private enterprises raising prices it is "the market".

The reason why the UK is worse I believe it's due to the political system which results in essentially 2 dominant parties with very little differences.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#224

Post by Bayart »

javajosh wrote: post #117
ArmandGrillet wrote: post #37

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU). A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germa…

>low digitalization Given that everyone uses IBAN, and it works great, I strongly disagree. >private healthcare if you want decent treatments Your mileage may vary, but I was very impressed with the speed and ease of acquiring healthcare under a public plan. The lack of paperwork for seeing a new doctor is astonishing. The lack of copays, SOBs, and all that is like a breath of fresh air, and is worth copying in the U…

My impression coming from France, which I never thought of as particularly progressive on the technological front, is that Germany is full of odd, idiosyncratic archaisms.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#225

Post by Nifty3929 »

sokols wrote: post #174
Nifty3929 wrote: post #160

People wouldn't be able to get this information without SCHUFA - at least not doing a fair bit of work. SCHUFA did work to build a system of gathering and providing this information in a consolidated way. I don't think people should have a right to demand this value be provided to them for free. If everybody now demands this information for free, why would this business continue to operate? And if they don't, how wil…

They are required by law to provide the information once a year, for free. The complaint here is that the “free” report contains less information than the paid one. Information which could affect a decision about a loan or maybe a decision of some landlord about a prospective tenant.

This wasn't clear to me in the article: "With the help of manipulative designs, people are prevented from obtaining a free copy of their data in accordance with Article 15 GDPR – even though they would actually be legally entitled to it."

Maybe you're talking about the score, but the score isn't data - it's an algorithm. "For example, in the case of the complainant, the free information included only a 'basic score', while the paid information showed six different 'industry scores.'"

And this is basically how it works in the US as well. When you get your free credit report, it will contain a score, but not the same score as is seen by a business requesting the report - because there are many different scores used for different purposes. The business pays for the score that matters to them which is different than what the consumer sees.

None of this feels particularly nefarious to me.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#226

Post by burnerthrow008 »

fmbb wrote: post #22
mschild wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Change it to what though? On the one hand, I think Schufa is collecting a lot of unnecessary data that they should'nt have access to. For example, when I bought a pre-paid SIM card in Germany the provider did a Schufa check. No idea why. On the other hand, I get why a credit score can be useful for larger purchase decisions. If I was a bank, I'd like to know if the person I'm lending 400k for a property, has in the p…

A good middle ground could be to only check what you suggested the bank wants to know: “Has this person defaulted before?” If someone wants to borrow huge sums from a bank the bank should take the risk and price it appropriately. If someone wants to borrow money to buy a TV the seller should take the risk and price it appropriately. The current solution seems too invasive for what it provides. How is the world better…

> If someone wants to borrow huge sums from a bank the bank should take the risk and price it appropriately.

Yes, but the point is that they can use your credit score to make more fine-grained assessment of risk.

Should an auto insurance company offer the same rate to a 97 year old blind driver with a history of accidents as they would to a 30 year old in good health with no tickets? What about the 16 year old who just passed his driving test yesterday? Clearly these three people present vastly different levels of risk to the insurance company and, even though it is certainly possible for the insurance company to do so, it would be stupid to ask them to pay the same rate.

The bank is simply doing the same thing: Pricing risk appropriately. The fact that they offer significantly different interest rates to different groups (or decline to offer credit entirely) just shows that these signals are effective at measuring risk.

> How is the world better because Schufa knows someone bought a prepaid phone card and can sell that to an online store when you buy a pair of shoes and choose to pay by invoice the next week?

Well, the shoe store is extending you credit, so it would seem appropriate for them to want to, as you put it, price the risk appropriately. The fact that you have recently undertaken other credit obligations is suggestive (yes, not conclusive, but still suggestive) that you may be in a precarious place financially and thus statistically more likely not to pay your credit on time.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#227

Post by illiac786 »

Beijinger wrote: post #185
ciclotrone wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them. As a relative of a person with a chronic disease I can tell you that on the one hand if we are not bankrupt it is because of public healthc…

" I'm proud of contributing through my taxes so that anybody in need can have the same treatment irrespective of their economic situation." It is a big world my friend. And if millions come to use these services but don't pay in, the services get thinner and thinner. 1 Million Ukrainians came to German. Less than 25% have a job. The rest is financed by the taxpayer. Money, Rent, Health insurance... Edit: It reminds m…

The one I have seen are all young women and kids. They will cause not even a fraction of the health care costs a 70 or 80 year old German generates. I can't find this stat but basically it's exponential, one generates more health care costs in the last ten years of its life than during its entire previous life, on average.

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#228

Post by 0xFF0123 »

kmlx wrote: post #205
ciclotrone wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them. As a relative of a person with a chronic disease I can tell you that on the one hand if we are not bankrupt it is because of public healthc…

> I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. after receiving the same services for no or minimal tax i also find it very disturbing that people still think high taxation is necessary.

Where?

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#229

Post by [deleted] »

dkural wrote: post #200
ciclotrone wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them. As a relative of a person with a chronic disease I can tell you that on the one hand if we are not bankrupt it is because of public healthc…

There is no capital gains tax - Germany has less progressive taxation than the United States! VAT in general is a regressive tax, that many EU countries inordinately rely on. A US-citizen has to pay taxes no matter where they reside, but the wealthier citizens of EU countries can easily evade taxes by domiciling themselves in various tax havens around the EU. Germany does a very poor job collecting taxes from the hig…

[deleted]

Re: German credit agency earns millions through unlawful customer manipulation

#230

Post by mk89 »

ciclotrone wrote: post #102
ArmandGrillet wrote: post #37

Finally. Germany combines some of the worst aspects of the US (credit ranking, complicated abortion process, private healthcare if you want decent treatments) with the worst aspects of Europe (low digitalization, high taxation, recursive federalism: within the country and within the EU). A country like the Netherlands has its own issues (mainly housing) but doesn't have the myriad of pain points you can find in Germa…

I find it quite disturbing that high taxation is seen as a negative aspect of Europe. I lived in Italy, France and Germany, and I enjoyed public healthcare and education of very high standard at very affordable prices, and free in the limit that one cannot afford to pay for them. As a relative of a person with a chronic disease I can tell you that on the one hand if we are not bankrupt it is because of public healthc…

Maybe nitpicking here, but healthcare is not financed with your taxes in Germany - it's financed by statutory health insurance (SHI) and private health insurance (PHI). The State "simply" sets the framework/legislation/etc. so that it doesn't get wild (like probably it is in the USA). [0]

In Italy it's the state/regions that take your taxes and pay the health system.

[0]: https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateie...

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