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PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

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221–230 of 268 posts

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point, but it somewhat says that making awesome native apps is not even an option anymore. I use Things (a todo app) daily. It was #1 of Design in the AppStore maybe already 5 years ago. I think it's a perfect example for a beautifully made native app. I really feel how the native behaviour workes so much smoother. I would love for creators to somehow strive more for beautifully made apps instead of…

No one wants to invest time and effort to develop for a platform that has a horrible review process. You have to invest multiple people's months worth of work without knowing if that particular snapshot of your app will offend the reviwer. The lack of native apps is the App Store reviews process fault.

And the only reason for that review is that Apple won’t let any software run on the platform. If Apple is the gatekeeper, any bad software that makes it through is their fault. They would never be able to keep up with it all or give private APIs a fair analysis, so they gatekeeper approvals and simply block anything they can’t vaguely autoanalyze.

The App Store revenue is a poison pill that will eventually start killing them. It’s already holding back their platforms, and the law can’t not bring down the hammer forever. The iPhone, iPad, Watch, and the Vision Pro would be truly remarkable platforms without the arbitrary, puritan rules.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe PWAs have a place in highly “templatable” things like restaurant pages and online shops. Those I can see adding to my home screen. Anything more complex than those is questionable.

Why do you need to 'install' a restaurant app/website? That's the perfect usecase for like... a website.

For most uses, "install" = hold my auth and put a bookmark on my home screen.

In that regard, webapps work perfectly.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what I'm asking about. Whether it's Apple, Android, or desktop, if I just want to make an offline app why would I use a PWA?

the argument isn't why use a PWA, it's why use a native app? in most cases, a team wants their product to be easily installable, live on the home screen, and have access to all native APIs. right now, the best way to do that is a native app the cost to that is going through the app store, meaning paying apple for the dev license, paying apple a percentage of sales, adhering to the app store rules, allowing extra time…

I don't care whether something is a native app or a PWA. If I can create something that works completely offline without a ton of hassle then that is the option I will go with. If it is easier to do that with a PWA then great! And the question is definitely "why use a PWA?" Native apps are the established norm and if you want to change that then the case needs to be made as to why.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The popularity of VSCode is mystifying to me: IntelliJ is a much nicer application and VSCode always ends up lagging randomly for me.

IntelliJ is very expensive and VS Code is free. That's a big driver for popularity.

JetBrains isn’t “very expensive”: for one thing, there’s a free and open source community edition; for another, the IntelliJ license is about the same as a Netflix subscription and, rather than being a pure cost, it’s a tool that supports one’s valuable skills.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#225

Understandable... PWAs are ultimately an alternative path from traditional mobile apps which will take away money from apple/google. But as a web dev community we need to stand firm and build PWAs regardless. If we treat pwas on iOS like we did Internet explorer (i.e. giving it special attention and hack solutions as opposed to just not developing for it) we will lose the fight. I suggest you call out the issues with…

I for one would much rather have native mobile apps that use platform-appropriate controls rather than web apps that use whatever some designer came up with. We’ve already lost this battle on computers because of electron, but iOS is nice precisely because there isn’t an easy way to just ship web technology “apps”.

You don't have to override the native styles of UI controls with CSS. If you don't add any CSS, they will look just like in native apps. It's a choice, just like you could implement your completely custom controls in native apps if you wanted to.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IntelliJ is very expensive and VS Code is free. That's a big driver for popularity.

JetBrains isn’t “very expensive”: for one thing, there’s a free and open source community edition; for another, the IntelliJ license is about the same as a Netflix subscription and, rather than being a pure cost, it’s a tool that supports one’s valuable skills.

The community edition only supports Java-style languages (and python with the PyCharm version). It's no match for the huge breadth of free vscode plugins.

And it's very hard to compete with free. You really have to code a lot to make it worth it. Personally I don't usually have a Netflix subscription because of the price though I'd sometimes get it for a month or so to watch something particular.

And for work purposes it's the difference of just being able to start using it versus justifying the expense to multiple levels in the org which can be prohibitive.

I totally understand how VS Code took fight like it did with its free model.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#227

Understandable... PWAs are ultimately an alternative path from traditional mobile apps which will take away money from apple/google. But as a web dev community we need to stand firm and build PWAs regardless. If we treat pwas on iOS like we did Internet explorer (i.e. giving it special attention and hack solutions as opposed to just not developing for it) we will lose the fight. I suggest you call out the issues with…

> for the best experience, use In this case you’d need “use ”. There’s no alternatives to Safari for PWAs on iOS.

That just changed in the EU: https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engi...

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things is a great example for PWAs, because it does not exist on Android, Linux or Windows. It could be though, if it would be a PWA. It is not and it seems like the developer focused its resources on native software for Apple products.

It could, yes. But the user experience and the amazing level of usability will degrade, and I would move to another product.

Comeon, it’s a todo app, being native provides marginal benefits over its functionality.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#229
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the EC wants is more or less what you get with Windows, macOS or Android. That’s the what not the why. The why is that they want a tech industry in Europe that’s worthy of the term. > It doesn't have any connection to "monetization of intellectual property", just look at Windows, Android, macOS, and all other operating systems. Yes, look at them. And don’t stop there. Look at game consoles and the Epic store,…

Apple does not charge for "using their SDK". They charge for installing (commercial) applications to devices they produce and sell. Even if I build an application completely without the Apple SDK, just with open source software, I can't sell it to people without paying the "Apple tax". Your example VS Code is not related to that at all, because Microsoft doesn't prevent installing applications built with other tools.…

> Apple does not charge for "using their SDK". They charge for installing (commercial) applications to devices they produce and sell.

The mechanics of how the fee is charged don't determine what it is for. This is like saying Amazon charges you a $49 fee to use their checkout page when ordering a book.

> Your example VS Code is not related to that at all, because Microsoft doesn't prevent installing applications built with other tools. Same with the Epic game engine. Windows/Android/etc don't force you to use the Epic game engine for all games built on their platform. You can use any other technology of your choice.

Nobody is forcing you to use Apple's SDK, either: You are free to use open-source software or to write your own... Of course those tools do not exist today, and your PM probably wants to ship the app sometime this decade. Nothing stops you from doing it yourself, but you would save a lot of work if you use Apple's. This is like complaining that your neighbor built a nice house and now he won't let you live it in for free when you are not willing to do the work to build your own house.

> Even if I build an application completely without the Apple SDK, just with open source software, I can't sell it to people without paying the "Apple tax".

Irrelevant. As of today there is no distinction between "an iOS app" and "an iOS app made using Apple's tools which attracts a fee from Apple".

Anyway, you are trying to diverge from the point: As I stated before, if the EC declares Apple's fee illegal (when there is no alternative tool), that sets a precedent that you cannot charge reasonable fees to license intellectual property. That is contrary to the aim of the DMA to encourage the European tech industry. Thus, predict they will make no attempt to close this supposed loophole.

Additionally, the actual DMA, as far as I can tell from English Wikipedia says nothing about gatekeepers charging fees generally, nor allowing free side-loading specifically.

> In the EU for example all car manufacturers need to provide documentation and spare parts to third party shops.

And those parts are free (as in beer)? No, you pay a reasonable price for them. Here is just the same. Third party software shops pay a reasonable fee, and then do whatever they want with the parts Apple provides. In this case the documentation fee is $99, plus $0.50 per part. If you are a registered non-commercial entity, Apple will even give you the parts for free.

> I know that this kind of "market freedom" is something that doesn't feel right for US citizens.

You mean the kind of market freedom where Spotify (with a 70% market share) is not a monopoly (sorry, "gatekeeper") and Apple (with a 30% market share) somehow is a gatekeeper? Spotify had over $13B in revenue, but paid just $9B to record companies last year. Won't anyone think of those poor record companies that have to pay *35%* "Spotify tax"? Doesn't anyone care that Spotify prevents record companies from having a human relationship with their listeners (and offering Exceptional Customer Service)? Oh, wait, I forgot: they're Americans and the gatekeeper is based in Sweden, and maybe someone is a friend of a friend, so we don't care right?

Yea, I guess I don't mind when the government doesn't have the "freedom" to arbitrarily decide who its friends and enemies are. Rule by law, not by man. Due process and all that. Y'all should try it over there sometime.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#230
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could, yes. But the user experience and the amazing level of usability will degrade, and I would move to another product.

Comeon, it’s a todo app, being native provides marginal benefits over its functionality.

Except that it feels smoother (the UI, animations, UX) instead of a web app, and is amazingly fast/reactive?
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