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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#221

Post by burkaman »

GloriousKoji wrote: post #193
burkaman wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's now more expensive to fuel a vehicle with electricity than gas This is very hard to believe, what are you paying for electricity? California gas prices are also way above the national average at the moment. Here's a per-state comparison from last year, I'm sure it's a bit out of date but I doubt things have completed flipped in a single year: https://energyinnovation.org/2023/07/27/ev-fill-up-savings/

I live in the Bay Area California and get electricity from PG&E. I use a minimal amount of electricity and I paid 43 cents/kWh last month. Gas from Costco is $4/gal right now. I have a plugin-hybrid which does 4miles/kwh and 45mpg or in terms of money: 9.3miles/$ on electricity and 11.25gas-miles/$ on gasoline. But maybe you don't actually care about fuel efficiency, then you have an argument that it's cheaper to fue…

Thanks that's helpful, and just found an overview of current rates that matches what you're saying: https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/...

I think it is still true in California that an average EV is cheaper to fuel than an average gas car, but if you have a very efficient hybrid then it's a bit cheaper than a pure EV.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#222

Post by bagels »

subsubzero wrote: post #84
herpdyderp wrote: post #5

The states listed are: - California - Colorado - Maine - Maryland - Massachusetts - New Jersey - New York - Oregon - Rhode Island

Interestingly enough, That list of states besides Colorado and Maine all were the biggest losers of population in 2023, meaning people are leaving these states. - California -0.9 - Maryland -0.5 - Massachusetts -0.6 - New Jersey -0.5 - New York -1.1 - Oregon -0.1 - Rhode Island -0.3

What are the units?

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#223

Post by remotefonts »

tomohawk wrote: post #137
nostrademons wrote: post #92

These states really need to get their electric rates down if they want to accelerate adoption of electrification technologies. We were planning to fully electrify our house + transportation in the next few years. PG&E rate hikes and net metering policies put the damper on that. It's now more expensive to fuel a vehicle with electricity than gas, so I'm charging my PHEV at work and using gas for the rest. We have sola…

Just looking at my street, which is not old infrastructure, they would have to replace all the electric lines, all the transformers, and all the panels in all of the houses if everyone here decided to have EVs. If everyone went to 100% electric heat, it would be even worse. We have dual fuel heating (heat pump, oil burner). It's prohibitively expensive to run the heat pump below 32F (0C), but the oil works great then…

>>As an engineer, I just have to shake my head at the unrealistic timelines being pushed by politicians. All that does is increase cost and drama.

Do you really think that's a coincidence? Not being snarky, just curious.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#224

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

virtue3 wrote: post #163
nostrademons wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the usual blue-state suspects, minus Washington and a bunch of the New England states.

places where heat pumps are not going to work well when it drops to freezing / below freezing.

Our Diakin was working at -15F but Po Lil PumpPump was struggling.

I had to have floorboard heat on for that week. So, it does work (not if you buy a cheaper unit not made for your climate) but it works a lot better above freezing.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#225

Post by bagels »

danans wrote: post #8

A big issue right now is the oversizing of heat pumps by HVAC contractors who are used to sizing gas furnaces using very simple btu/hr/sqft calculations. A contractor should do some kind of heating need analysis, at the least by studying old utility bills, and ideally by doing a Manual J heat loss calculation for the house. But almost none of them do that. There are some startups attempting to handle these design ste…

I'd much rather have oversized than undersized and still be sweating inside when it's hot outside.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#226

Post by qmarchi »

aidenn0 wrote: post #160
floatrock wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Napkin math: My crossover EV gets 2.5-3.5 mi/kWh. Call it 3. / $0.2/kWh = 15 mi/$ Avg fuel economy in US ~ 25mpg. At $3.50/gal that's 7 mi/$ So at 20c/kWh, your dollar goes roughly twice as far on electric. California has been seeing brutal rates, though -- 40c/kWh not uncommon. Californians can play games with Time-of-Use rates (charge at night), get onto EV-specific rates, be on a CCA which tend to not have the try…

Where in California can you get gas for $3.50/gal?

Yuba City, CA. According to GasBuddy

ZIP: 95950

https://www.gasbuddy.com/gaspricemap?lat=39.08984244471869&l...

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#227

Post by GoatOfAplomb »

lex-lightning wrote: post #198
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Alright, maybe I’m out of touch, but I don’t think electricity is expensive in California. Even during 115 degree heatwaves in a 70-year-old, 3-bedroom, single-family home. Most I paid was $100 in a month with 2 people with gaming computers working from home. Not everyone has that kind of money, but my point is that most people have cell service and other services which add up to more than electricity costs. That’s f…

With the latest PG&E rate hike, my off-peak rate is 33c/kwh and the highest peak rate in 66c. I think the national average is 19c? That seems like a pretty drastic difference to me.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#228

Post by mullingitover »

bagels wrote: post #214
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Southern Cali resident here: I got a mini split system installed a couple years back, and last year's eye-popping surprise gas bill inspired me to start running it backward for heat instead of using the furnace.

Pricewise, it's actually a wash. My electric bill went up by about $100 a month, whereas during the winter my gas bill was running about $100 a month to run the furnace (aside from that one random $600 bill one month last year that inspired this change). I've been using the mini split all winter and it's been great.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#229

Post by Casteil »

readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

Price gouging seems like standard practice for HVAC companies.

I'd like to replace my 25+ yr old system (gas furnace/AC) with a new gas furnace & heat pump so I can have the option of heating with gas or electricity... but when I ran this by an HVAC technician who was here for a service call, I got the same kind of exorbitant figures thrown at me with the heat pump in the equation.

Same technician wanted $750 to replace a control board when my furnace had gone out during a blizzard - I sourced my own & did it myself for <$150.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#230

Post by randcraw »

Tarrosion wrote: post #85
moribvndvs wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had one for three years. While I generally love it, it cools too fast, which means it sucks at removing humidity, actually increases it a little. The installer over-provisioned.

I've heard this before -- that oversized cooling units (whether standalone AC or part of a heat pump) mean muggy interiors in the humid seasons. But...why? I'd think that a fixed amount of air compressed in the compressor means a fixed amount of condensation runoff from the unit, and it wouldn't matter much whether it's a big unit running occasionally or a small unit running frequently. Why is that wrong?

The volume of air that passes through the heat pump must be cooled (or warmed) at the same rate as it is dehumidified, unless humidity control can be done independent of the pump. If you oversize the pump, the house is cooled faster than it is dehumidified, and the air reaches the desired temp before it reaches the desired humidity, and the compressor turns off while the air is still humid.

It's possible to independently add humidity when heating -- using a mist gun -- but not to remove it during cooling. However, if the heat pump has a "dry mode" it can dehumidify without also cooling by switching back and forth between heat and cool mode. If not, to dry the air further, it must cool it further.

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