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Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

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Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#221

Post by LoganDark »

stavros wrote: post #212
bmicraft wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When done properly this is supposed to have a 100% success rate. Sounds a lot like the No True Scotsman fallacy. I'm sure most smokers trying to quit think about how bad it is every single time, yet they can't. How would one even know when you've "thought about it hard enough"?

Yeah, I'm really wary of the "when done properly, it's effective" rhetoric. It's like "we know this isn't effective, but that's because nobody does it properly". Well if it's impossible to do properly, how is it effective?

I think the reason monks have a (reported) 100% success rate is because they've perfected explanation/mentoring for many generations. Obviously, someone on HN paraphrasing an article they saw once isn't going to have the same effect.

I still see the irony, though. "it works 100% of the time, for 1% of people!" So it works 1% of the time then?

Knowing these things hasn't helped me at all in life, btw. It's just some trivia.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#222

Post by hydrok9 »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #209
hydrok9 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they're two totally different skills

wow, such a great and detailed explanation!

wow, such a testy response.

Okay,singing requires manipulation of your voice (diaphragm + airways. You also need to know the correct posture to keep,but its not 100% necessary).

Dancing requires manipulation of your feet, legs, hips, shoulders, arms, hands, and head. Sometimes your belly and butt as well.

Just having a sense of rhythm isn't good enough. You can bob along to a rhythm with 100% accuracy, and not be "dancing." You need to know how to move your body in a way that is rhythmically accurate and pleasing to the eye, coordinating different body parts in alternating, but synchronized patterns. It's a totally different skill set. Musicians,for example, are often very reluctant dancers.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#223

Post by pi-e-sigma »

hydrok9 wrote: post #222
pi-e-sigma wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, such a great and detailed explanation!

wow, such a testy response. Okay,singing requires manipulation of your voice (diaphragm + airways. You also need to know the correct posture to keep,but its not 100% necessary). Dancing requires manipulation of your feet, legs, hips, shoulders, arms, hands, and head. Sometimes your belly and butt as well. Just having a sense of rhythm isn't good enough. You can bob along to a rhythm with 100% accuracy, and not be "da…

But sense of rhythm and good hearing is required to both singing and dancing. So there is a common skill. Singing requires manipulation of your body (diaphragm) and so does dancing, so your muscle coordination must be good, again common skill. And it just happens that there is not a single famous singer that behaves on scene like a typical non-dancer you can observe in a club. So obviously there is some correlation between singing and dancing. It might not be very strong but it's obviously there and categorically saying that there is no such correlation what-so-ever is really strange.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#224

Post by tpmoney »

claytongulick wrote: post #199
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

Someone explained to me that the subconscious mind does not like giving up something that it likes in exchange for nothing. Say for example you want to give up smoking. So don't give up. Instead, just stop that behavior for the present time - then your subconscious is not fighting you. So you want a cigarette? Well sure OK you can have one, but defer that decision to have it for some period of time. Maybe start with…

I was really lucky, I guess. I smoked around a half a pack a day for about 20 years. I decided to start getting in shape and started swimming every day. All of my desire to smoke vanished overnight. I don't know why, or what the mechanism was. I never intentionally decided to "quit". It just suddenly happened that I had zero desire to smoke, so I didn't anymore. I still work out regularly, and it's been 10 years now…

The older I get and the more experiences I have with people and their various vices, the more I'm absolutely convinced that most vices and addictions arise out of trying to "self medicate" some unfulfilled need your body has. Sometimes we learn that these actually have underlying medical phenomena (see ADHD people self medicating with caffeine via coffee consumption) but because of just how little we know and the long history of moralizing addiction, often times we don't know what's being medicated, and so we assume it's a moral failing instead. This might also explain why something like alcoholism seems to have a hereditable component. If the effect of alcohol fulfills some need your body has due to some sort of genetic / biological makeup, it makes sense that said need could be inherited in the same way anemia or any number of other conditions are.

In your case, I would imagine there was something your body needed that it got from cigarettes / nicotine that it was also able to get via the exercise and smoking, so the need to smoke went away as that need was filled elsewhere. That need could have been a chemical deficiency, but also could have been a mental need (like say, time to stop and think, which maybe you got via smoke breaks, and now also get via being in the water)

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#225

Post by slibhb »

jawns wrote: post #28

I am not a smoker, but I recently read through Allan Carr's "Easy Way to Quit Smoking Without Willpower" book. (There is a similar book out there called the Easy Peasy Way to Quit Porn, for those who are struggling with that.) The tl;dr is that it's much harder to quit an addiction with the mindset, "This thing is great, but I'm going to deprive myself of it." Instead, you need to realize that you've been deceived an…

> I used these techniques to break a bad habit. Every time my mind so much as wanders in that direction, I have a mini speech I give myself. "Boy, I am so glad that I have escaped the slavery of that dopamine cycle, where I wasn't getting joy from the habit itself, but just satisfying the craving of the addiction. I'm in such a better place now."

Sounds a lot like will power.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#226

Post by s1artibartfast »

Sakos wrote: post #207
s1artibartfast wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a fundamental misalignment here about what constitutes willpower. The coach isn't a contradiction to willpower. You still make the choice to get up and go when you are lazy, you have just changed the incentives and accountability. It also takes willpower and initiative to hire a coach. If you avoid anything difficult and quit the second things get hard, no a mount of support will help. By all means,…

For some reason you and others seem to think every action or decision takes the same amount of effort and willpower. That's the only contradiction I see in these comments which is causing all these conflicting opinions.

>For some reason you and others seem to think every action or decision takes the same amount of effort and willpower

Thats a weird observation to make. can you point to where anyone has said that?

I certainty havent said things require the same effort and will power, just that any action with effort requires some willpower.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#227

Post by hydrok9 »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #223
hydrok9 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, such a testy response. Okay,singing requires manipulation of your voice (diaphragm + airways. You also need to know the correct posture to keep,but its not 100% necessary). Dancing requires manipulation of your feet, legs, hips, shoulders, arms, hands, and head. Sometimes your belly and butt as well. Just having a sense of rhythm isn't good enough. You can bob along to a rhythm with 100% accuracy, and not be "da…

But sense of rhythm and good hearing is required to both singing and dancing. So there is a common skill. Singing requires manipulation of your body (diaphragm) and so does dancing, so your muscle coordination must be good, again common skill. And it just happens that there is not a single famous singer that behaves on scene like a typical non-dancer you can observe in a club. So obviously there is some correlation b…

There are a lot of famous singers that don't dance on stage. Neil Young, Kurt Cobain, Geddy Lee, Bob Dylan. Having a sense of rhythm and a good ear just aren't enough to make you a good dancer.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#228

Post by pi-e-sigma »

hydrok9 wrote: post #227
pi-e-sigma wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But sense of rhythm and good hearing is required to both singing and dancing. So there is a common skill. Singing requires manipulation of your body (diaphragm) and so does dancing, so your muscle coordination must be good, again common skill. And it just happens that there is not a single famous singer that behaves on scene like a typical non-dancer you can observe in a club. So obviously there is some correlation b…

There are a lot of famous singers that don't dance on stage. Neil Young, Kurt Cobain, Geddy Lee, Bob Dylan. Having a sense of rhythm and a good ear just aren't enough to make you a good dancer.

Your examples of singers that don't dance on the stage don't prove that they can't, but just that they don't want to. I was asking about someone who is a well known singer but actually tries to dance but really can't and it shows. And again, we are talking about correlation, and not exact match of skills. So it wouldn't mean that a great singer is automatically a _great_ dancer, too. Just that if someone is really good at singing he is likely to be pretty good at dancing but not necessarily exactly as good. Maybe that's part I didn't articulate clearly earlier.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#229

Post by Sakos »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #226
Sakos wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some reason you and others seem to think every action or decision takes the same amount of effort and willpower. That's the only contradiction I see in these comments which is causing all these conflicting opinions.

>For some reason you and others seem to think every action or decision takes the same amount of effort and willpower Thats a weird observation to make. can you point to where anyone has said that? I certainty havent said things require the same effort and will power, just that any action with effort requires some willpower.

It's even in your comment. Do you seriously not see it?

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#230

Post by s1artibartfast »

Sakos wrote: post #229
s1artibartfast wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For some reason you and others seem to think every action or decision takes the same amount of effort and willpower Thats a weird observation to make. can you point to where anyone has said that? I certainty havent said things require the same effort and will power, just that any action with effort requires some willpower.

It's even in your comment. Do you seriously not see it?

Not at all
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