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Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

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221–230 of 231 posts

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you're located, but in my experience even in Silicon Valley this is very rare. Most of the older engineers are either all about C++ or Java. My context: I'm UK based, but I know a fair number of US folk. I'm in my forties and most, but obviously not all, of my friends are 30-60. The point I was, somewhat poorly, trying to make is that in my experience it's equally common to find a single language f…

This is very true (I'm UK based too). When I did my CS degree we were taught Java and that was all most people knew. A few also knew PHP because they were interested in webdev or Visual Basic/Pascal because that was what they had done at A Level. I don't think anyone on the course knew functional programming until we did a module in it. This was particularly pronounced when we were given an assignment to do where the…

Back in the late 1980's my degree had us use: assembler, Pop11, Common Lisp, ML, Prolog, C, and Module2 over a three year course.

Frankly I find it incomprehensible that any CS degree doesn't at least cover using declarative, functional and OO languages.... but it seems to be common.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but software development is special because not everybody can do it. Don't get me wrong here, I actually think that mostly anyone (lets say over average) can learn to code, including very young children or over 40 adults ... the difference between normal people and people that make a carrier out of it is that building actual applications is a lot harder than printing hello-world or sorting an array or sc…

Yeah I agree that programming, for whatever reason, seems to be something that a lot of people just can't do well. But we're talking about the people that have been doing real work in the field for ~20 years getting booted out to god knows where. Is this true? If so, where do they go? It's not really so easy to start a completely new professional track at 40. Are they stocking shelves?

I really think those people just gave up for one reason or another.

But do note here that 20 years ago there weren't many jobs related to software development. This industry started taking off in the early nineties and got popular in the late nineties. And as I said, it's not an easy job.

So if you want to make statistics based on that, the sample is really small. We should wait another 20 years for any meaningful conclusions, and my guess is that in 20 years from now there will be many software developers over 40.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#223

Wow, what hogwash. I still don't see where the article connects the dots -- why, exactly, would I end up working for an English major? As for the balance of the article, most of the finger-pointing to dead-end oblivion for 40+ programmers is that they're priced out of the market. While that may be true in some cases, it's certainly not a trend I'm seeing -- rather, the opposite. Mostly, this article was written by so…

Eh... I wouldn't write off the author that easily. I had him as a professor at UC Davis. http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/matloff.html

Lots of credentials, but I don't see much in the way of real-world technology experience working in the field. Not to knock the guy, but his only vantage point is academia and government. He's certainly well publicized (gets his name in the paper a lot), but it just doesn't add any credibility to his story.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#224
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that there isn't a puzzle/test type of way to rank managers False. The test is: how much money did your team make? (For the truly crafty, the test is: how much money did your team make relative to the initial investment and risk?)

You reveal a short-termist Anglo-Capitalist bias. This is not how good managers are assessed in other forms of capitalism or business. Consistent long-term business growth is far more important in some, e.g. in Germanic and Scandinavian countries. In general, you could say a good manager meets the targets that have been set by higher management, whatever they may be. Yes, I am a manager.

You're more right than my response was. I just wanted to point out that tests for managers do exist, which was what was under dispute.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#225
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may seem like another one of those trite responses you mentioned, but I would second the notion that "you can do anything you put your mind to" and that you should keep up the program, or at least keep learning CS on your own. If you look to put degree notches on your belt and list languages you know on your resume, you're looking at things the wrong way. Build things! Get excited about what you can build--anyth…

I agree with you, and I would love to actually have the time to dedicate to such a focus. What ends up happening in reality, however, is the tradeoff between having a roof over your head, and learning. I'm not sure I'm well versed enough yet at being a civilian worker, and still having enough time to dedicate to learning what it is I want to know. In other words, I look at your post and thing "YES, Great! I would lov…

Some jobs are better suited to learning than others. Whether it's working at a public library, being a night-shift security guard, or any other job that would allow you access to a computer (having persistent internet isn't even necessary). What you can get away with is different at different jobs. If you're motivated, you'd be amazed how much you can learn on top of having a full time job--often much more than the average full-time student absorbs. Are you leaning more toward redirecting your learning toward something you can pick up more easily or toward giving up on higher education in general?

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#226
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop talking about job titles. Stop talking about the things that you do. Instead talk about increased ROI, more conversions, decreased support costs, better PR, etc. Talk to potential customers about their problems first. Then give them solutions to their problems. Ideally have stories from previous customers about those areas. Stories sell much better than skill lists. For example a while back I sent this letter (l…

I agree with this in theory. Here's our problem: What we're mostly looking for is customers who need to build systems, and come to use to build them. Whether it's doing it per-hour, or taking some product specification and building it. What we aren't doing is going to companies that already have systems, and improving them. We're more focused on building products from scratch. It's possible that the problem is with o…

What we're mostly looking for is customers who need to build systems, and come to use to build them

You might find it helpful to think about your customers as people with problems that mean they have to build systems. The customer doesn't care about the "system". They care about solving the problem.

1. Should we be focusing elsewhere?

No idea. Are you finding customers for what you're offering now?

2. If so, how do we find the kind of customers you're talking about?

I think we're talking about the same customers. Or were anyway (we're in the process of moving to doing more consulting/teaching/coaching ATM since it gives us more options). We build things for people who needs things built :-)

You find customers for consultancies in the same way you find customers for software products. You need to start going to where the customers are. On-line and offline. Try adding some business meet ups to your technical ones. Listen - don't sell (at first anyway).

Talk to them. Figure out what their problems are. Solve them. Do a reasonable job. Figure out what worked and didn't. Tweak your offering. Go talk to more potential customers. Solve more problems. Do a better job. Start getting references. Repeat.

I've found the Business Model Canvas a useful tool for brainstorming ideas on my own business - looking for alternate revenue streams and markets - http://www.businessmodelgeneration.com/canvas - as ever YMMV :-)

3. If not, how do we take a customer, who's a lone guy or a company with a new product, and use the techniques above to present ourselves differently?

I don't know - how do you present yourselves now?

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#227
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this in theory. Here's our problem: What we're mostly looking for is customers who need to build systems, and come to use to build them. Whether it's doing it per-hour, or taking some product specification and building it. What we aren't doing is going to companies that already have systems, and improving them. We're more focused on building products from scratch. It's possible that the problem is with o…

What we're mostly looking for is customers who need to build systems, and come to use to build them You might find it helpful to think about your customers as people with problems that mean they have to build systems. The customer doesn't care about the "system". They care about solving the problem. 1. Should we be focusing elsewhere? No idea. Are you finding customers for what you're offering now? 2. If so, how do w…

We're new, so everything I say here is subject to change.

We present ourselves as a software freelancing company. We ask our connections to refer people to us who need web applications built. We've also looked at something like Elance (but that targets the Israeli market, specifically). Most of our customers and potential customers were either: 1. people looking to build a new startup (or webapp), and want to outsource the development to us. 2. Freelance shops who represent customers looking to build webapps, and who are outsourcing the actual technical work to us.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#228
post #43

"This page is not available for mobile viewing at this time." Are you kidding me?

It said 'over capacity' before, so I'm wondering if they're having server issues on the mobile version.

Nope, still moronically broken.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#229
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we're mostly looking for is customers who need to build systems, and come to use to build them You might find it helpful to think about your customers as people with problems that mean they have to build systems. The customer doesn't care about the "system". They care about solving the problem. 1. Should we be focusing elsewhere? No idea. Are you finding customers for what you're offering now? 2. If so, how do w…

We're new, so everything I say here is subject to change. We present ourselves as a software freelancing company. We ask our connections to refer people to us who need web applications built. We've also looked at something like Elance (but that targets the Israeli market, specifically). Most of our customers and potential customers were either: 1. people looking to build a new startup (or webapp), and want to outsour…

We're new, so everything I say here is subject to change.

Good :-) That's the right attitude to have.

We present ourselves as a software freelancing company

To whom? Addressing individuals or organisations? Shop floor? Middle management? CEO level? What kind of project are they looking for? What kind of budgets? What kind of timescales? What do they expect during the project? Long-term or short-term relationships? Do they want to collaborate or expect you to do everything by yourself? In any particular industry?

How? Do you just have a website? A blog? In conversation? Advertising? Cold calling? References? Magazine articles? Press? Raising a personal brand or a company brand?

If you don't have answers to these sorts of questions off the top of your head you don't have a strong model of what your customers are like, and how to get yourself in front of them.

We ask our connections to refer people to us who need web applications built.

Are your connections people like you - or people like your customers? While any work is obviously good it's the references from customers that you really want to try and get. They're much more likely to be convincing to other potential customers, and to know more potential customers.

Flip it around. Whose recommendation would you trust more for a development role. Another techie or a sales guy?

We've also looked at something like Elance

The folk who go to Elance et al tend to be extremely price conscious, and often the kind of client ends up being... difficult... I steer clear of them myself. Also clients tend to think of their solutions coming from "elance" rather than from yourself. If you look how elance et al are mentioned online you'll see folk recommend "elance" not "this great company I found on elance".

I have heard of people using Elance to bootstrap themselves to a client based. They used them to explore different kinds of client, collected references and testimonials, etc. Then used those to get more work outside of the elance system. It's not something I've tried myself.

Obviously don't throw work away - but think about how it helps you in the longer term.

Most of our customers and potential customers were either: 1. people looking to build a new startup (or webapp), and want to outsource the development to us

They sound useful. How did they find you? Were they happy with what you did? Have you asked what you could have done better? Have you asked for references and testimonials?

Have you looked at your most successful projects and asked "How can we find more people like this?"

Have you thought about how to get repeat and ongoing business from these folks? Are you keeping in touch?

2. Freelance shops who represent customers looking to build webapps, and who are outsourcing the actual technical work to us

This is mostly a lousy business to be in too - since: * the freelance shops are the ones who get the biggest slice of the pie. * the freelance shop is the one that gets the recommendations and references - not you

Again, if it's helping cashflow now - don't throw work away. But think about how it helps you in the longer term.

---

I'm hoping this is coming across as vaguely constructive criticism rather than a grumpy rant ;-)

I guess if you want it wrapped up into a bite sized piece of advice it would be to: 1) Have a goal; 2) Have a plan that moves you towards that goal.

Write down a brief one page description of your ideal company. Write down a brief one page description of the clients you would need to support that company. Write down a brief one page description of the ways you would get those clients.

You may find that you can't do anything to get those clients at the moment. The market or the channels may be out of your reach for various reasons. Fair enough. Start thinking about ways to get to that market or those channels. Use that as a goal. Think about what you'd need to get there. Repeat until you find something you can try.

It's easy - especially when you start - to just jump from client to client with no overall aim. I know I worked that way at the start. Which is great while you can find work. But unless you take a step back occasionally and think a bit more strategically - you're either going to stay the same, or get gutted by the next guy who comes in a bit hungrier and leaner than you are.

Have a plan. Feel free to change it every few months - but have a plan.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt many 40+ programmers are going to come out in support of this article. In cases of discrimination, you are labeled a crybaby so it's better to just stay quite. HN is mostly young and the only 40+ ones here are the type who like puzzles or in top 1 percentile of programming (e.g. patio11). For a vast majority of 40+ programmers, the reality is as grim as painted in this article. If you are not in top 1 percent…

While I appreciate the praise, I am likely not in the top 1% of programming ability. (People often say that I am, because I'm pretty good at written and oral communication. Take note, young impressionable HNers, because this strongly suggests reprioritizing which trees to put your talent points into.) As to your own circumstances: there exist many clueful companies which would hire you. Find my email if you want to t…

To add to patio11's note: I don't have as much social clout here as he, but believe me when I say that people skills (I'm lumping in various communication skills here) are way, way more important than technical skills. Reprioritizing is right. In my opinion, his success is due more to his "soft" skills; he's closer to a one-percenter [grin/duck/run] in terms of his communication skills than his technical ones.

Even so, this isn't rocket science. Just like any other skill, effective communication can be taught. Like many other pursuits, it doesn't take long to distinguish yourself just because there's so much rubbish out there.

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