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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#221
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you're of course right—and at the same time, if I ask myself how to follow HN's core principle [1] in relation to this topic, I can't see "don't touch it at all" as right either. It may be an impossible quandary—but it's not in the spirit of this place to take an easy way out; or to put it differently, the easy way out (if one exists) is not in the spirit of this place. What does "curiosity" mean in a context li…

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"Qatar argues that some its critics misunderstand why it hosts Hamas’s political leaders – which is not so much out of ideological sympathy but because the US has asked it to."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/21/why-is-qatar-o...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To misquote Bryan Cantrill, one should not make the mistake of anthropomorphizing Netanyahu. When a nationalist politician like him is faced with an event like this, long-term international diplomacy considerations barely enter the picture. The violence just comforted him in his previous worldviews, all he saw was that his nationalistic policies were justified and the only viable answer was to be even more of a natio…

If there as an election tomorrow in Israel, do you think the new leader would be against war? Like it or not, Hamas' actions have prompted a response from the Israeli people, a different leader wouldn't change that sentiment.

True, Israeli votes are the only votes that have had, and can have, any material effect there. They have voted for Netanyahu reliably for years, so the present situation, Hamas included, is what they have, collectively, chosen. Hamas has always been Netanyahu's staunchest political ally. If Israeli voters ever choose differently, change might be possible. Until then, things will be reliably more of the same.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#224

My political awareness was forged by the 9/11 terrorist attacks and the American response. The core lesson: the point of a terrorist attack is to trigger an over reaction. America wildly over reacted and became fundamentally hostile to Arab and Muslim people. This reaction led to some of the most successful recruiting of radicals in generations. Israel's response to this crisis seems to have failed to learn from that…

This is a common, but very flawed misunderstanding of the situation in Israel, by analogizing it to 9/11. (Many Israelis were pushing this narrative at the start of this, btw, but that doesn't make it true.)

This wasn't just a terror attack, like 9/11 was. It was an invasion. Thousands of armed militants breached the border and invaded Israel, then killed more than a thousand Israelis. The militants were inside Israel for a few days after. In addition to the ground invasion, Hamas shot rockets into Israel, and has continues to shoot rockets at Israel this entire time.

This wasn't a terror attack. It was an invasion and a declaration of war.

In addition to all of that, for the first few weeks after this invasion, it was very unclear whether this would lead to a wider, joint attack by other forces as well. It is very hard for people in the US, and for most Westerners, to really understand what it's like to be afraid of losing a war. Israel probably would've survived even if this war turned into a combined attack by not just Hamas, but by Hezbollah and possibly even others. (Who, btw, are also shooting at Israel every day, just not doing it enough to really be considered another combatant.)

The response to 9/11 was maybe an overreaction. But 9/11 was not a real threat to the US , and this was fairly clear. This is an entirely different situation - there is a sworn enemy of Israel on its borders, proving they have the capability to kill thousands of citizens, and claiming they're going to do this over and over. That's a situation that a country can't live with, which is why Israel's reaction is not an overreaction - it's what any country on earth would do.

Notes:

1. This doesn't mean that everything Israel does is ok - there are different ways of prosecuting a war, Israel could still be doing it in a very immoral way and be consistent with everything I said above (I don't think that's true, but it's orthogonal to my point in this comment).

2. This comment also doesn't say anything about whether or not Hamas is "justified" in invading Israel, nor does it claim that "history started on October 7th" or anything silly like that. Of course there's context to this whole situation. (It should be needless to say but I'll say it anyway - there is no excuse for Hamas's deliberate targeting of civilians, and no excuse for the slaughter they committed. Still, that's also orthogonal to the point I'm making in this comment.)

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#225
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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The white phosphorus Israel is using in Lebanon and Palestine is manufactured in Pine Bluff, Arkansas

They don't use it as munition, it's used by all countries in the way Israel uses it

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#226
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the "benefit of the doubt" has been lost in relation to this subject. I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. It's tragic and a tragic subject, although I dispute the "there couldn't be a more significant current event" - lots of events are equally (or more) significant and relevant. I hope to be proven wrong, but I have doubts.

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"Intentional mass murdering of civilians" is what Palestine did to start this war in the first place. So even if Israel were deliberately targeting civilians (there's no evidence for this) they would still be on the right side of this conflict.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the cartels have never kidnapped an american citizen or killed DEA agents?

the more i think about it, the cartels are a pretty good comparison

How? The cartels want to make money through illegal means, they don't want to destroy America. The cartels studiously avoid killing Americans. When they do kill Americans, the leadership either kills the members who killed Americans or turns them in, e.g. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gulf-cartel-apologizes-...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#228
post #54

Israel has also been imposing apartheid on Palestinians for years, a fact that high-ranking officials themselves admit [1][2], and which human rights reports confirm[3]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposin... [2] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-13/ty-article/ex... [3] https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...

I disagree on the apartheid claim and so does former anti-apartheid activist and South African politician Mosiuoa Lekota [1]. Per Wikipedia, Apartheid is a "system of institutionalised racial segregation", and Israel's citizens include many Arab Muslims and even Palestinians, all of whom have equal rights. Israel's declaration of independence explicitly supported "equality...without distinction of race, creed, or sex…

It's interesting that you are citing a former South African politician who opposed apartheid. I will quote a South African journalist who fought against apartheid, published books about it and defended Israel as a non-apartheid state for many years after moving there. Now, he states that it is indeed an apartheid state.

"In 2001, I joined Israel’s government delegation to the world conference against racism in Durban. The government of Ariel Sharon invited me because of my expertise after a quarter-century as a journalist in South Africa; my specialty was reporting on apartheid close up.

At the conference, I was disturbed and angered by the multitude of lies and exaggerations about Israel. During the years since, I have argued with all my might against the accusation that Israel is an apartheid state – in lectures, newspaper articles, on TV and in a book."

And later he writes:

"In Israel, I am now witnessing the apartheid with which I grew up."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/19/israel...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big difference: Israel lives by the border of Gaza, right next to the terrorists that forged the October 7th attack. Meanwhile, the US had no border with the belligerent terrorist organization's societies (Iraq, Syria, ME). Would the US allow a terrorist organization that both DECLARES, has CAPABILITIES to, and HAS DEMONSTRATED INTENT to harm its citizens to live by its borders, and threaten with continued assaul…

Do you think the cartels have never kidnapped an american citizen or killed DEA agents?

AFAIK cartel gang members by the border of US aren't taught from young age that all US citizens are demons that stole something that belongs to them, and that their goal in life is to kill as many americans as possible.

They also don't obtain and launch thousands of rockets at US cities, or go on 3,000-men raid of US cities by the border for the main objective of killing, hurting, kidnapping and instilling fear into US citizens.

The comparison of cartels to terrorist militias like Hamas is ridiculous and reveals ignorance.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#230
post #65

Im glad to see the community engage with this -- there couldnt be a more significant current event happening right now and its jarring that it would be so silent. Edit: And why is it relevant here? At a minimum coworkers are suffering silently through it. The emotional damage just for internet bystanders is staggering.

I found the silence on HN around these events deafening when the Oct 7th attacks first happened (before Israeli retaliation). What is depicted here is tragic. There were many other tragic depictions then too. It seems fair to discuss both tragedies yet here only one instance is used as the “testbed” for HN discussions, from a generally biased source. I’m hoping we will find some nuance in these tough conversations an…

Discussions around Israel disproportionately descend into highly polarised opposites. It's a shame @dang allowed this one through.
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