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The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

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Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#221

Post by glitchc »

amrocha wrote: post #210
bnlxbnlx wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, parenthood is intense, both both ways. It intensifies the highs and the lows. There's more strain and there's more joy. And there's a lot less strain when moving out of nuclear family structures. It all becomes easier for the children and the parents.

I disagree that there's more joy to parenthood. I think that's a lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision. I'm happy for you if you're happy to have children. That doesn't mean people without children aren't as happy as you.

Can you really have an objective opinion until you experience both sides? I suspect it isn't the parents that are lying to themselves...

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#222

Post by 7thaccount »

amrocha wrote: post #210
bnlxbnlx wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, parenthood is intense, both both ways. It intensifies the highs and the lows. There's more strain and there's more joy. And there's a lot less strain when moving out of nuclear family structures. It all becomes easier for the children and the parents.

I disagree that there's more joy to parenthood. I think that's a lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision. I'm happy for you if you're happy to have children. That doesn't mean people without children aren't as happy as you.

I don't think the commenter is saying you can't be happy without children, but it's a kind of experience that you either have or you don't, and it's hard to understand if you never had children. I'll add some context below in case you're interested in hearing about my own perspective.

I was pretty darn happy as someone who got to go read a book each weekend at a coffee shop and workout 3x per week. I eventually had a kid and I no longer have hardly any time for the stuff I used to love to do. Kids need constant assistance and have their own growing pains. Despite all that, it's given me a richness and depth to my life that I can't put into words. I get to experience raising someone with all the ups and downs. This has given me a kind of wisdom I never knew I didn't have. I could go on and on for days.

"A lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision"? Not at all (at least for 99% of is I'd wager). It's terrifying, but I wouldn't change a thing. I wouldn't trade the feeling I get from getting a hug from my kid or that first time they read a book for a combined $50B dollars, immortality, super inhumane intelligence, and movie star good looks.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#223

Post by thepasswordis »

conception wrote: post #22

The book Hunt, Gather, Parent touches on this a bit. It takes 3-4 humans, not necessarily adults but cousins and whatnot, to take care of a child. Two? 6-8. Since western societies broke up tight knit communities, the support system for this in the west has been lacking and jerry rigged with tired parents and nannies etc ever since. The reason for the breakup is fun - https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/11/ro…

Western Society seems to be doing pretty well.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#224

Post by glitchc »

em-bee wrote: post #55
lotsofpulp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting hypothesis, but I don’t know if I buy it. Much of India had also long barred cousin marriages, probably long before the Roman Catholic Church, but the dependencies and village raising the kids dynamic still existed (until recently). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapinda If I were to guess, the main causal factor is economic/security independence. If living in a tight knit village, sacrificing your freedom…

If living in a tight knit village, sacrificing your freedoms is the best option you have, then that is what most people choose. If there exists an option for you retain your freedom and have financial independence and physical security, then people tend to choose that you make it sound like these are opposing incompatible choices. why not choose both? i'd love to live in a small tight knit community. going to school…

> you make it sound like these are opposing incompatible choices. why not choose both? i'd love to live in a small tight knit community. going to school and getting a good education does not prevent that. and with more options to work from home it is now even more possible than it was in the past.

Tight-knit by definition means everyone's up in everyone's business. You would know your neighbour's business intimately, as intimately as they'd know yours (think what you pooped last night as a sense of how intimate). If that strikes you as unnecessary and potentially disgusting, then tight-knit isn't for you. I came from one... and I know for a fact it isn't for me.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#225

Post by em-bee »

seec wrote: post #90

I hate those types of "research" that base all their "findings" on observation of what is undesirable primitive living. What's more they don't even meaningfully quantify what can be qualified as neglect or abuse. My opinion as well as my own experience is that those children are far more likely to be subjected to much higher levels of abuse and neglect in this type of situation. As someone who has been neglected by h…

i am sorry for your experience. i can relate to a degree. my first thought when reading "given to be taken care of by various family members" was: at least you had family members who cared for you (as in showed you loving care). i didn't even have that. (except for my grandmother who was to far away to see her more than once a year) on the other hand i didn't develop a feeling of abandonment and i came out of the experience with extreme independence and strong self confidence. my brother wasn't so lucky.

however on second reading i had to realize that i can't judge the quality of care that you did get. likely it may have been worse than anything i had to go through. again, i am sorry for that.

the common point though is that we both had something missing when growing up. for me it took decades to understand what what missing and more importantly how that affected me.

but most importantly, neither your nor my experience have anything to do with the experience described in the article. the key difference is that while the children in the article have many caregivers, and possibly spend a lot of time away from their parents, they didn't get any feeling of abandonment from them.

your experience is something entirely different, and rejecting the living arrangements described in the article is the wrong conclusion. that your parents abandoned you had nothing to do with the community you were in. that community didn't make them do that.

my parents couldn't show love because of the experience they had growing up during and right after the second world war, having to flee approaching armies and then living in a destroyed city giving them an experience that is hard to imagine.

in my case, living closer to grandparents and cousins would have made a big difference. i was able to make up for the shortfall by finding a loving and caring partner. my brother needed therapy.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#226

Post by em-bee »

cycomanic wrote: post #133
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

> When considering the implications for Western countries, the authors highlight that the provision of affordable high-quality childcare support, which goes beyond effective supervision, should be prioritized. > Ratios of caregivers to children were greater than five-to-one in the observed hunter-gatherer groups, whereas in UK nurseries each adult is responsible for numerous children. There is now way you can pay for…

I find that part of the article and the parallels drawn to nurseries in the UK (by one of the researchers apparently) quite weird. My understanding is that what is denoted caregiver in the article is quite different to a careperson in a nursery. I don't think that a caregiver in the hunter gatherer society will exclusively watch one child only (and not all the time). I suspect more that they are available if needed.…

The article says children had often 10-20 caregivers, based on the 18 children that's a minimum of 180 adults.

i do not understand how you could even come up with that kind of interpretation. that caregivers are not exclusive in such a scenario should be obvious. how could it be any different? and no, it doesn't make the whole thing nonsensical. there is a qualitative difference when a child has many adult role models to choose from. it helps put the experience with their own parents in relation to how they experience other adults.

the point is not the absolute ratio of adults to children, but the number of adults each child has access to that they can learn something from. and that doesn't require any exclusivity.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#227

Post by [deleted] »

7thaccount wrote: post #222
amrocha wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that there's more joy to parenthood. I think that's a lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision. I'm happy for you if you're happy to have children. That doesn't mean people without children aren't as happy as you.

I don't think the commenter is saying you can't be happy without children, but it's a kind of experience that you either have or you don't, and it's hard to understand if you never had children. I'll add some context below in case you're interested in hearing about my own perspective. I was pretty darn happy as someone who got to go read a book each weekend at a coffee shop and workout 3x per week. I eventually had a…

[deleted]

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#228

Post by salamandersss »

7thaccount wrote: post #222
amrocha wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that there's more joy to parenthood. I think that's a lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision. I'm happy for you if you're happy to have children. That doesn't mean people without children aren't as happy as you.

I don't think the commenter is saying you can't be happy without children, but it's a kind of experience that you either have or you don't, and it's hard to understand if you never had children. I'll add some context below in case you're interested in hearing about my own perspective. I was pretty darn happy as someone who got to go read a book each weekend at a coffee shop and workout 3x per week. I eventually had a…

Meh I mean it's true for some not others. I had a kid and never particularly found the richness and depth emotional feeling.

Of course if you express the opinion you find parenting to be basically another duty you must fulfill to the best of your ability despite finding little to no joy from the task, it will be taken poorly. So you internalize the lie, buy into it the best you can to pretend to yourself you don't have an opinion that makes everyone hate you, because apparently parenting is the one duty that is 'wrong' unless you find it satisfying.

Feels like a bunch of people got the 'dope' that makes parents feel emotional rewarded from the insane amount of labor it requires, others internalize the 'lie' so they have a way to respond to others in a socially appropriate way.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#229

Post by salamandersss »

glitchc wrote: post #221
amrocha wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that there's more joy to parenthood. I think that's a lie parents tell themselves to justify their decision. I'm happy for you if you're happy to have children. That doesn't mean people without children aren't as happy as you.

Can you really have an objective opinion until you experience both sides? I suspect it isn't the parents that are lying to themselves...

Once you experience the other side, outside of a psuedo-anonymous forum you're not really allowed to have the other opinion, and you'll quickly learn to shut up or 'lie' or become a hated pariah. It becomes a bit of an echo chamber.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#230

Post by em-bee »

glitchc wrote: post #224
em-bee wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If living in a tight knit village, sacrificing your freedoms is the best option you have, then that is what most people choose. If there exists an option for you retain your freedom and have financial independence and physical security, then people tend to choose that you make it sound like these are opposing incompatible choices. why not choose both? i'd love to live in a small tight knit community. going to school…

> you make it sound like these are opposing incompatible choices. why not choose both? i'd love to live in a small tight knit community. going to school and getting a good education does not prevent that. and with more options to work from home it is now even more possible than it was in the past. Tight-knit by definition means everyone's up in everyone's business. You would know your neighbour's business intimately,…

ok, fair enough. it needs to be tight knit and open minded. unfortunately many people still lack in the open minded aspect of it.
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