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Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

electrek.co

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Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#221

Post by Daneel_ »

windexh8er wrote: post #203
vore wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the update only affects infotainment and not critical systems, it seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me. Just because a car can fail in ways that kill people doesn't mean all parts of a car are equally critical.

This isn't true. If you look at the release notes for any of Rivian's updates they all include vehicle related firmware changes. This is not simply infotainment. Beyond that "infotainment" includes driver critical information - like the speedometer which, for many affected, means there's no working driver screen.

The article states that the speedometer is unaffected:

"Speedometer, charging, backup cameras, locks, lights, wipers, and turn signals are all still functional with the 2023.42 error."

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#222

Post by gunapologist99 »

This is why I don't really want my car to have any antenna (that receives/interprets code) or receive OTA updates, ever.

I'd like to please force any attackers to at least be within 50 feet of my TPMS, instead of being literally anywhere on the planet.

A car doesn't need data updates, and definitely not code updates[1]

1. source: every car built in previous century.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#223

Post by xienze »

code_runner wrote: post #199
FireBeyond wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So far, only Tesla seems to be able to update car software remotely, regularly and reliably. I'm certain it's neither easy nor cheap. Tesla, whose computer systems quite regularly need to be hard rebooted while the car is driving ? That Tesla?

I had to do this once or twice (its very very infrequent in my experience) and one time it was genuinely terrifying, as I had lost blinkers etc where a few interstates all intersect and merge etc. I still do love the car though.... but a very sketchy moment that I shouldn't have brought on myself while driving in that situation.

> I had to do this once or twice (its very very infrequent in my experience)

This is something that’s _never_ supposed to happen.

> but a very sketchy moment that I shouldn't have brought on myself while driving in that situation.

How on earth can you rationalize a Tesla performing an update/hard reset while driving as _your_ fault? It should never be allowed to happen!

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#224

Post by shoelessone »

Honestly this makes me feel good, just because it always worries me that I don't see this type of issue being resolved more often. having to physically bring in a car seems like a near worse cast situation but it's good to keep this in our minds as a possibility.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#225

Post by mytailorisrich »

DannyBee wrote: post #215
mytailorisrich wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 2c based on your comment: * " signed with the wrong cert " should mean the software package is rejected before it it is installed. * software upgrades are tricky and there should be at least 2 versions available so that fallback to the previous is possible and automatic in case of issues.

The software package probably is signed right but contains multiple signed binaries of which one is signed wrong. Or is multiple signed packages and one is wrong. Or the test cars accept prod and test certs. Or some combo of the above. There are lots of ways this could have broken that doesn't amount to rivian not being able to write software

I am not criticising Rivian, not least because I don't know the details.

That being said, "signed wrong", including all your hypotheses, that results in a bricked unit is definitely a serious oversight in general.

This also might highlight why production tests should be run on exactly production units. No tweaks allowed.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#226

Post by Terr_ »

FireBeyond wrote: post #184
BlueTemplar wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds ridiculous. How is that even road legal ?!?

Teslas occasionally need to reboot / hard reset their software too, when driving no less, and during that period all that information, and most of the controls, are unavailable (like windshield wipers, etc.)

> Teslas occasionally need to reboot / hard reset their software too, when driving no less

Move over, Microsoft, I think I've found an update policy I hate even more...

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#227

Post by emmelaich »

Someone1234 wrote: post #131
emmelaich wrote: post #105

Poor title; physical repair is not required. Physical presence is required.

The article doesn't really state what is required to repair the vehicle. I'd assume if it was as simple as loading a flash drive and plugging it in, then Rivian would have provided a way for customers to self-fix. The second a single body panel is removed to gain access to the headunit, it is a physical repair. So without more info we cannot know if it is accurate or not.

I don't think many people would consider removing a body panel to be a physical repair. I think the term is 'back to base' or similar.

Physical repair suggests e.g. a burnt out capacitor

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#228

Post by bo1024 »

qmarchi wrote: post #149
refulgentis wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinion: I'm a little confused as to how you're confused as to how test might not match prod sometimes. Observation: "[if you write buggy software], there's reason for you to get an off the shelf option" Question: Are you saying if they used Android Automotive this could never have happened? Reference: similar event for Android, last week: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1538248-pixel-phones-using-m... Disclaimer: Fo…

Answer: To clarify, more that a company should stick to their core competencies unless there's a drastic need or opening in the market that could be filled (and to build a new competency). In this particular case, there's nothing particularly unique that Rivian is doing with their Infotainment system that couldn't already be handled by an incumbent in the space, (Android Automotive, QNX, etc.) especially given how mo…

Rivian thinks of itself as a software company. The first thing you sign when you go to buy a vehicle is a software copyright notice IIRC. The first thing in the owner's manual is a notice that the software copyrights and intellectual property belong to Rivian, etc etc.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#229

Post by mkipper »

jandrese wrote: post #188
DannyBee wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rivian does have a test fleet, and they test it for weeks before releasing. This particular issue is because they apparently distributed the firmware signed with the wrong cert. Not a bug in the software itself. That is independent of testing the software, but still a distribution issue.

Yeah, but how did the vehicle not just reject the wrong cert and refuse to flash the update?

I've never worked in automotive but it's pretty easy to imagine how this might play out in a car, where a single update might bundle updates for several programmable devices.

It's easy to imagine a central SoC receiving the update, verifying its signature against a local key and then reprogramming some MCU over an internal interface. But then after resetting the MCU, you realize that the image you just flashed isn't compatible with the boot security keys burned into that MCU. It's not uncommon for a device performing the OTA update to not have access to the "source of truth" keys / certificates used to verify the updated image at boot time.

Not that this is a great excuse. If you add OTA updates to a product that has this design, you should really be confident in your recovery solution.

Re: Rivian software update bricks infotainment system, fix not obvious

#230

Post by psychlops »

latchkey wrote: post #174

I built a whole remote software update mechanism for a control binary that ran on 25k+ servers across multiple data centers. Rest assured that after the first time I messed it up (which required ssh into each box individually), I wrote a lot of unit and integration tests to make sure that it never failed to deploy again. One of the integration tests ensured that the app started up and could always go through the inte…

Having worked on 25K machines, I can assure you that it never deployed to every single machine and failed to do so in interesting ways all the time.
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