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Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#221

Post by astrange »

jen20 wrote: post #97
JAlexoid wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah.... Except that this is not true. There's not enough talent in US, so we have to seek elsewhere. American graduates have these starry eyes and want to work mostly in two types of companies FAANG or early stage startups... Who's going to go to work at pharma companies, banks, electric companies?

The market solution to this is for those companies to pay more until they attract people to work there.

There's plenty of reasons a job market wouldn't clear even if you raised the pay. You can't get blood from a stone, sort of thing.

For instance, American citizens are not going to become farmworkers even if you paid them FAANG engineer wages. They just aren't.

I think to attract people to certain careers, anytime after they're born is too late. You have to have started with their parents. Good chess players are good because they started at age 5, not because they went to school for it.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#222

Post by astrange »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #32
at-fates-hands wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it interesting that Apple hasn't done what many other large US corporations have done and just open offices in a country like India. Then they essentially get rid of any US based employees. No H1B's needed and you're still paying pennies on the dollar for the work.

Try working with people on a 12 hr time difference. It's very difficult.. I don't believe it truly works. I don't think management at some places know it doesn't work because they aren't involved in the actual work.

I don't know about 12 hours away - that'd be China and Perth - but there's certainly FAANG engineering offices in Europe, Canada, Japan, Sydney…

But FAANG isn't going to leave Silicon Valley. If your theory says that's a good idea, you should ditch it for one that has empirical evidence for working.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#223

Post by astrange »

threadweaver34 wrote: post #174
VirusNewbie wrote: post #80

I have worked at other FAANGs where I see certain immigrant managers only seem to hire other immigrants from the same country...

You don't want to be the odd one out on a team since you'll be the first to get laid off. Either find a team with a good mix or stick to your own color.

Apple hasn't laid engineers off since the early 2000s IIRC. It didn't happen in 2021 because they didn't overhire like everyone else did, nor did their execs decide to punish their employees like everyone else did.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#224

Post by microtherion »

astrange wrote: post #215
hashtag-til wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> starting from sanctioned countries. Is FAANG hiring a lot of people from Cuba, North Korea or Iran? Although Iranians are pretty good at tech and I know a sr. distinguished Iranian engineer at Apple. That's even better than distinguished! Can't beat that.

I can't recall ever having met a Cuban or North Korean engineer at Apple. But I've worked with some outstanding Iranian engineers. They did not strike me as particularly likely to spy for their country…

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#225

Post by microtherion »

throwaway12355 wrote: post #195
iaseiadit wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt it’s a top-down decision to prefer foreign applicants at Apple. But that said, it’s common in FAANG to find scenarios where a manager is of a certain background, and 90% of the people under just happen to be of the same background, and nobody says anything.

That's very common with one or two specific demographic, but not all that common with most others. I'll refrain from naming them, but it's widely known i suppose.

I can think of three demographics, one of which, of course, is Americans themselves.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#226

Post by subarctic »

astrange wrote: post #222
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try working with people on a 12 hr time difference. It's very difficult.. I don't believe it truly works. I don't think management at some places know it doesn't work because they aren't involved in the actual work.

I don't know about 12 hours away - that'd be China and Perth - but there's certainly FAANG engineering offices in Europe, Canada, Japan, Sydney… But FAANG isn't going to leave Silicon Valley. If your theory says that's a good idea, you should ditch it for one that has empirical evidence for working.

FWIW, it looks like Mumbai is 13.5h ahead of California and 10.5h ahead of New York, which works out to 12h if you average them

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#227

Post by sgjohnson »

pandaman wrote: post #200
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

EB2 requirements: BS or equivalent + 5 years of progressive experience. Or, alternatively, a very light version of EB-1 "exceptional ability" checklist. The fees are couple grand and the major expense is in interviewing and rejecting enough candidates to justify the need. You seem to be confusing it with EB-1. While it's true these people already work there etc. etc. EB2, just like EB3, requires the DOL certification…

> It's literally a claim that there are no US citizens or LPRs who could do that job. How credible you'd think such a claim is?

Very credible, because people already employed don’t really count. It doesn’t matter at what company.

Imagine someone leaves whatever company they are at to take the role at Apple. Now the company the employee left has an opening that can’t be filled.

And that’s how it works. Otherwise there would be no need for immigration in this sector at all.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#228

Post by sgjohnson »

x86x87 wrote: post #177
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

there is no such thing as an EB2 visa. EB2 is a category for Green Card. PERM is one stage in the Green Card process. (it goes: PERM -> I140 -> I485. https://maggio-kattar.com/three-stages-employer-sponsored-pe... ) https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-eligibility/gree...

Technically speaking, a green card is still a visa.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#229

Post by hashtag-til »

astrange wrote: post #215
hashtag-til wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> starting from sanctioned countries. Is FAANG hiring a lot of people from Cuba, North Korea or Iran? Although Iranians are pretty good at tech and I know a sr. distinguished Iranian engineer at Apple. That's even better than distinguished! Can't beat that.

If anything, these are small scale…

I’m more talking about the wholesale scale from other dictatorship countries, under export control restrictions.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#230

Post by nojvek »

supportengineer wrote: post #35
clumsysmurf wrote: post #26

I worked at a company owned by some large banks. When the immigration lawyer came for a meetings roughly once per year, the place got super quiet. Everyone I worked with did basic stuff ... docker, Spring Boot, and I didn't understand how such basic positions needed visas in such a large metro like Phoenix. Yet, the pay was comparable ... there must be some angle I don't understand.

"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.

It doesn’t need to be said. At big tech companies it is implicit. You see coworkers being let go and the difference between easily switching to another job because you are a citizen vs having to wrap everything in US and go back to home country.
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