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Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

nytimes.com

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Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#221

Post by trealira »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #215
trealira wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're giving them a little too much credit. Plenty of disruptive kids have a perfectly fine home life, have an iPhone, get expensive toys or technology bought for them. A lot of them are just jerks who were never punished by their parents, received few punishments from teachers and staff who had little power, and enjoy being disruptive or bullying others, and don't give a shit if they flunk all their tests o…

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it. I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful. "the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked. Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some…

I only said it 3 times.

I don't mean to say that everything should be authoritarian. But to maintain a good school for the students who go to a non-authoritarian school, there still needs to be some degree of punishment, or expulsions. Just like in a non-authoritarian government, people who commit violent crimes still need to be sent to jail for the safety of others. Once away from the others, they can be reformed and reintegrated back into a normal setting, where the teachers can trust students not to get into fights more, and kids can learn in a quiet environment where others also want to be high-achievers, or at least are motivated to not become drop-outs.

I just don't think there's enough of that in schools like the one I described. Sorry, I kind of let my past color my tone more than I should have.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#222

Post by gotoeleven »

sobkas wrote: post #169
logicchains wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The philosophical issue is charter schools use public resources yet are not accountable to the public. They absolutely are accountable to the public in their school district, who can choose to send their kids not to that school if they don't like the school, depriving the school of revenue.

> >The philosophical issue is charter schools use public resources yet are not accountable to the public. > They absolutely are accountable to the public in their school district, who can choose to send their kids not to that school if they don't like the school, depriving the school of revenue. Having a choice between charter school and public school without enough resources to provide even basics to its students is…

Where are these mythical schools "without enough resources to provide even the basics" ? They don't exist, this is a canard that won't die. Public schools in the US are funded extravagantly. The worst performing schools have the biggest funding per student.

Some kids want to learn, some don't. Some parents value education, some don't. Not even a billion dollars per student will change that.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#223

Post by lizardking »

gustavus wrote: post #79
Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

> The same type of thing is in play in military schools. There will be few-to-no kids of poor single moms. All the kids will be well fed and groomed and socialized. I grew up near a military base, and that describes very very few people. > no kids of poor single moms I'd suggest taking a look at what the military pays before you make the claim no poor. As for single moms it turns out that divorce is a big problem and…

> I'll give you that can be the case, if the MLM and the 30% interest on the new Dodge Charger didn't take all the money.

As prior service army, the Dodge Charger bit is painfully true.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#224

Post by gotoeleven »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #91
hospadar wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is that if you want good schools you need to cut your losses with the worst behaving kids. This kind of attitude is a wide-open door for racist and classist attitudes to penalize kids of color, kids from poor homes, kids with unsafe or unstable home situations. Suspending and expelling kids almost always makes things worse for those kids. There are HUGE racial and gender disparities in the rates of susp…

There are huge racial and gender disparities in all sorts of things. More than half of black children are in single parent households compared to 20% of white children. You can't just look at racial outcomes and determine discrimination without asking whether priorities and choices are also different between the groups.

Au contraire! I can and do look at racial outcomes and determine discrimination without asking whether priorities and choices are also different between the groups because I have good intentions in my heart and my race card is not yet maxed out!

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#225

Post by infamouscow »

linuxftw wrote: post #69
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simplistic arguments like this are one of the more annoying parts of the rhetoric of charter school advocates. It assumes that all charter schools are of high quality and that making education yet another thing that is economically stratified in the US is good. It’s ok to say that things that sound nice like choice in education can have knock on effects that are bad for society. Very few things in this world are pure…

If public schools weren't awful, there would be no need for charter schools. The public school experiment has failed.

> The public school experiment has failed.

The American education model was modeled on the 18th-century Prussian education system designed to create docile subjects and factory workers.

And by the measure it was actually designed for, I'd say it's an astonishing success. It's why you can be a high school graduate but not literate.

I encourage you to do your own research on the father of American education: Horace Mann.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#226

Post by autoexec »

greenhexagon wrote: post #177
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is both a loophole and the main point. It's the main point for people who want their children to succeed at the expense of the rest of society and it's a loophole when they try to sell that concept to the rest of society as "we can teach better for cheaper so give us your tax money and let us replace universal public education" rather than "we have thrown some of your children on the scrapheap for you to expensive…

Please also consider: removing the one or two severely disruptive students from a classroom results in drastically better education for the 20+ students who remain, which is likely a benefit to society at large. Based on my own education, a public school where every single day the same 1 or 2 students disrupted the lesson, assaulted nearby students and forced the teachers to waste hours on maintaining order rather th…

> Please also consider: removing the one or two severely disruptive students from a classroom results in drastically better education for the 20+ students who remain, which is likely a benefit to society at large.

Charter schools aren't needed for that though. Public schools are supposed to already be doing it. Either in the form of escalating detentions/suspensions followed by expulsion, or by moving the most problematic kids into emotional/behavioral disability classrooms/schools, or in the worst cases sending the children to hospitals and group homes.

If public schools aren't doing this, there needs to be changes in administration, just like schools where they simply resort to arresting children and giving them police records for disobeying and being disruptive. Police shouldn't be involved at all for anything less than severe crimes.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#227

Post by nine_k »

gotoeleven wrote: post #220
marcus_holmes wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it. I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful. "the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked. Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some…

It does work and has always worked. You're living in fantasy land.

It works, but not in a way you'd like it to.

A related saying of some guy who knew this stuff: "You can make a throne of bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long". You can force people with punishment, but they will try to revolt and get revenge once they have a chance; even a small chance, and a small revenge.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#228

Post by theGnuMe »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #215
trealira wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're giving them a little too much credit. Plenty of disruptive kids have a perfectly fine home life, have an iPhone, get expensive toys or technology bought for them. A lot of them are just jerks who were never punished by their parents, received few punishments from teachers and staff who had little power, and enjoy being disruptive or bullying others, and don't give a shit if they flunk all their tests o…

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it. I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful. "the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked. Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some…

I agree with you as a parent of a kid who has been labeled as disruptive. My kid is a smart sweet loving child who has big emotions and gets overstimulated. If anything he is bullied and taken advantage of by the other kids, yet he is the one who is disciplined because he has big reactions in the school setting. Kids can be really mean. In many sense the school is inflexible largely because of budget constraints. This is why we have large class sizes. Can you imagine handling 26-30 4th graders?

I am lucky in some sense because I can afford all the therapies, private tutors and teachers as necessary. I can throw money at the problem where as many kids have parents who cannot. Even then throwing money at the problem doesn't guarantee anything. You have to find the right fit for your kid and hopefully they learn the skills they need and adapt along the way.

To the rest of the commentors in the thread, you cannot segregate kids. The schools need to adapt to them and meet them where they are. In the US Federal Law guarantees this but the reality is that schools are underfunded by a huge amount so when we talk about individualized education and special education services, everything is cookie cutter.

BTW if any parent in this thread section can recommend a great public school system with appropriate Level 3 services please reply. I can literally move anywhere. A 70k a year private school would be hard to afford right now as would a $1-2 million dollar home in said school district but there is really no good information out there for parents.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#229

Post by VirusNewbie »

autoexec wrote: post #226
greenhexagon wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please also consider: removing the one or two severely disruptive students from a classroom results in drastically better education for the 20+ students who remain, which is likely a benefit to society at large. Based on my own education, a public school where every single day the same 1 or 2 students disrupted the lesson, assaulted nearby students and forced the teachers to waste hours on maintaining order rather th…

> Please also consider: removing the one or two severely disruptive students from a classroom results in drastically better education for the 20+ students who remain, which is likely a benefit to society at large. Charter schools aren't needed for that though. Public schools are supposed to already be doing it. Either in the form of escalating detentions/suspensions followed by expulsion, or by moving the most proble…

If schools don’t have competition there is no incentive to do this.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#230

Post by theGnuMe »

trealira wrote: post #221
marcus_holmes wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said "punish" so many times. Punishing unruly kids doesn't stop them being unruly. They just learn to hate the system and everything in it. I got expelled from 2 kindergardens, and then was sent to a Montessori school. Where I was fine, even helpful. "the beatings will continue until behaviour improves" just doesn't work, has never worked. Maybe we shouldn't have one school experience for all the kids. Maybe some…

I only said it 3 times. I don't mean to say that everything should be authoritarian. But to maintain a good school for the students who go to a non-authoritarian school, there still needs to be some degree of punishment, or expulsions. Just like in a non-authoritarian government, people who commit violent crimes still need to be sent to jail for the safety of others. Once away from the others, they can be reformed an…

You've heard of the school to prison pipeline right?

https://www.aclu.org/issues/juvenile-justice/juvenile-justic...

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