Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder • Hacker News Board

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#221

Post by aurareturn » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 4:46 AM UTC

danenania wrote: post #220

aurareturn wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have laws preventing 100mpg speeds on any vehicle. We also have laws that govern how a motorcycle should be driven. The government can't ban everything that has a risk of death. You could die if a tree falls on you randomly. The government isn't going to ban trees. It has to do with the magnitude of the problem to society. Motorcyclists getting killed, although a problem, is not that high of a problem to society i…

A law against 100mph speeds on a vehicle is not a corollary to drug prohibition--it's banning the use of vehicles completely. "It has to do with the magnitude of the problem to society. Motorcyclists getting killed, although a problem, is not that high of a problem to society in the US." Considering that cannabis kills exactly no one, you seem to be arguing against your own point here.

>A law preventing 100mph speeds on a vehicle is not a corollary to drug prohibition--it's banning the use of vehicles completely.

See my tree falling example.

>Considering that cannabis kills exactly no one, you seem to be arguing against your own point here.

Nope. You're using deaths as the measuring stick. I'm using impact to society.

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#222

Post by jochem9 » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 4:53 AM UTC

naasking wrote: post #207

01100011 wrote: post #22

Obviously people with mental discomfort are more likely to seek comfort in mind altering substances. That said, as someone who is bipolar, has bipolar friends and has used cannabis for a significant portion of my half-century on Earth, cannabis usage is proportional to mood instability in myself and my friends. I have taken extensive breaks and noticed I am much more mentally resilient and less emotionally labile whe…

> have taken extensive breaks and noticed I am much more mentally resilient and less emotionally labile when taking breaks. For sure, but that's an association. Which one actually caused the other? eg. perhaps you got into a state of mind that was less emotionally labile and so decided to take a break.

That's not my experience.

Sometimes I don't use cannabis for a while and feel fine. Then, while still feeling fine I unexpectedly end up in a situation where I can smoke a joint. Maybe it shows up at a birthday party. The days after there is a noticable change in my emotion regulation (less stable, easily feeling down).

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#223

Post by Perenti » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 4:56 AM UTC

ajfdsaaj4e4ea wrote: post #83

I'm terrified of seeking help for mental illness because certain diagnosis can have legal impacts. It is a sad truth, no one has a real response for it except "get over it", and it is very, very difficult to get support for political reforms to protect the mentally ill. I am also terrified the medications we force on some mental health patients, especially injected long-term ones, are purely for the benefit of the ca…

Remember that word "some" - it's really important. I knew someone who was floridly psychotic and would stab strangers when he smoked weed, until he got an Involuntary Treatment Order and monthly depot injections. He's still got very unusual ideas, but he's not stabbing anymore.

Mental Illness is a very broad term.

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#224

Post by SamPatt » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:01 AM UTC

tomohelix wrote: post #204

monero-xmr wrote: post #28

Every single chemical I put into my body has risk. Too much salt, caffeine / coffee, cheese, pasta / carbohydrates. When I drive a car I’m rolling the dice. When I let my 10 year old walk by himself to the subway, ride it to his friend’s house, and then ride it back, my mind can wander to all sorts of dangers. Marijuana is absolutely a drug with downsides. There are also upsides - for example I enjoy my life more. I…

Of course, I have no complaints or problems with things people do behind closed doors. I only have issues with those who smoke so much it reeks even when they are not smoking or I am 10ft away from them and still smell it.

10 ft away? I wish it were only that far. After legalization here in Michigan, you can smell it seemingly everywhere.

I supported, and still support, legalization. But the smell is a serious issue. Even just driving down the road I catch a whiff from other cars or buildings nearly every day.

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#225

Post by mr_toad » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:05 AM UTC

thsksbd wrote: post #80

eep_social wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure let’s please do the same for alcohol and caffeine.

Could we start a conversation on the externalities of alcohol consumption? That'd be great. Lets start by putting a 100% sales tax + $1/50ml ethanol on alcohol. Let's see how inelastic alcohol consumption really is.

Some countries already tax spirits at around 100%. Wine and beer usually less.

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#226

Post by Perenti » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:06 AM UTC

aurareturn wrote: post #172

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Three weeks ago, I was pro-weed recreation legalization. Today, I'm strongly anti recreation use. The other posters here have a point. If one is vocal against cannabis while mostly giving alcohol a pass - it makes it harder to respect warnings of harm. After 5 generations of lying drug war PR and ridiculous propaganda, this deeply incredulous debate needs a lot to be worth considering.

Just because alcohol is bad for you, doesn't mean weed is good for you. I believe it's easier to get addicted to weed than alcohol. I think time will prove me right. Think of it this way. Let's say there are 100 people in a society. Without weed, 5 are addicted to alcohol. With weed, 20 are addicted to weed and 3 are addicted to alcohol. Yes, there will be fewer alcohol addicts, but we added 20 weed addicts. Is this…

Your 20 pot heads are most dangerous to sweets and junk food. The alcoholics drive, get angry and start fights.

I'd much rather be in a room with 20 stoners than 5 drunks.

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#227

Post by pfannkuchen » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:06 AM UTC

nemo wrote: post #148

pfannkuchen wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like the people who say that auto company lobbying is the cause of poor public transportation in America. Sure, that is a cause, but there are many other causes as well, and the other causes likely dominate the named cause. Framing it as the cause seems implausible and even cartoonish to me.

If you read the actual words and statements of the historic people fighting the actual drug war, they seem implausible and even cartoonish, and they absolutely drip with racism. While the reality was partly incredibly racist malicious actors deliberately ramping up the drug war, it was also an incredibly malicious right-wing culture war - imprisoning peace activists was a stated goal of the architects of the drug war…

I’m pretty sure a lot of these are cherry picked to paint a picture (not by you, but by the sources you have read). A lot of people are broadly against psychoactive substance use. The generous interpretation of why they are against it is because the rules of social interaction are set up assuming a certain level of mental presence and self control, and some psychoactive substances cause some people to lose the ability to consistently follow those rules. Blaming a propaganda machine for something with a simpler explanation is conspiracy theory adjacent (at least).

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#228

Post by brutusborn » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:08 AM UTC

PheonixPharts wrote: post #79

l33t7332273 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is correlation vs causation determined in other studies where a control group cannot be used?

It's important to recognize that we've never successfully answered Hume's general skepticism about the existence of causality as something that is real outside of our own minds. So causality can't be positively confirmed to exist at all , let alone be detected and confirmed through statistics. Before you dismiss that is philosophical non-sense, causality is closely related to the "Arrow of Time" which is considered a…

I don't think Hume's work suggests that causality isn't 'real' but that we can't prove causation using inductive methods. This isn't a problem unless our measure of 'truth' is proving some causal effect to be true. The solution is to pretend our models of causation are correct, run them and compare the results to observation. We never 'prove' the causal effect, but we judge its validity by how well it can predict future observations.

In my view the 'real' problem we currently have is that we cannot test hypothesis in isolation (Duhem-Quine thesis). Thus we rely on heuristics like "scientific consensus" to judge whether the hypothesis that make up a field are gaining predictive power or not. The solution to all these problems is to use the Lakatosian Method of Scientific Research Programmes to track a field's progress over time. Anything less than this just devolves into Kuhnian paradigms, which is basically a popularity contest to determine 'valid' scientific methods.

I think this 'real' problem can explain all the failures of modern science: the replication crisis, abuse of statistical methods, funding influencing results.

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#229

Post by somsak2 » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:15 AM UTC

ajfdsaaj4e4ea wrote: post #83

I'm terrified of seeking help for mental illness because certain diagnosis can have legal impacts. It is a sad truth, no one has a real response for it except "get over it", and it is very, very difficult to get support for political reforms to protect the mentally ill. I am also terrified the medications we force on some mental health patients, especially injected long-term ones, are purely for the benefit of the ca…

there's tons of self-guided resources online that are amazing at helping with mental illness that don't require you to submit to some person or organization that could report you. we need to stop seeing "talking to a therapist" as the only way to define getting mentally healthy.

Re: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder

#230

Post by Perenti » Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:18 AM UTC

aurareturn wrote: post #159

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wake up at least 4 times a night and get horrible sleep unless I eat an edible before bed. Just 5mg THC helps me sleep through the night. I just started regularly consuming marijuana this past year and it's been great as a sleep aid. I've tried a couple of prescription drugs and they make me feel awful.

Jut an FYI, weed makes sleep quality worse. Also, your tolerance will build up over time. 5mg THC won't work in the future. You'll have to up it to 10mg, then 15, then 30 and so on.

Not always true. I'm prescribed medical CBD, THC and flowers, and pure indica strains help with sleep. Sativa is as you say, it makes sleep worse.

Without "Spectrum Red #1" I sleep in 2 hour shifts. I consume about 0.3 gm (whole herb vaporiser) around 9pm, by 11pm I'm asleep for 6-8 hours. Most importantly, I don't wake wishing I'd died in my sleep.

Note that I'm on CBD, so I don't get "psychotic" side effects.

I also have some 30%THC Sativa that is used to get me going to do things. I can find more reason to push through pain and move more, which in the longer term reduces the impacts of pain and suffering.

I've seen what you've posted about your experience, and if I'd met you in real life I'd have told you "You know you're probably the kind of person who should never use cannabis". I've said that to a few people over the years. Eventually they agree with me. Sadly it's sometimes after they've fucked their lives irrevocably. Cannabis does not do that to _most_ people though, as they use it non-compulsively.