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Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#221

Post by sebzim4500 »

troymc wrote: post #163
syntaxing wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not defending Tesla but battery range is really hard without context. Kinetic energy is velocity^2, which means moving twice the speed takes 4X the energy. They probably can get the right estimate for a destination because it knows the speed limit for the route and using that as your velocity can give you a better answer.

"...moving twice the speed takes 4X the energy..." That's not quite right. The power required to maintain a constant velocity v against a constant drag force of F is P = Fv. With air drag on a car moving at highway speeds, the drag force F actually depends on v: it's proportional to the square of v, i.e. F ~ v^2. All together then: P ~ v^3 So doubling the speed will increase the required power by a factor of eight.

Aren't you agreeing with him?

If the power is 8x higher and the speed is 2x higher then the energy per mile must be 4x higher, as he says.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#222

Post by 542354234235 »

tekla wrote: post #108
wredue wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er? Perhaps the car could make use of sensors that every ice and ev vehicle has had installed for decades, along with previous driving habits?

Yes the sensors on the car are now time machines that can figure out what the cars future conditions are going to be. Why would you want your previous driving habits to affect the base level estimation? Your driving today could be vastly different, and then you would be here complaining about how wrong it was and the range anxiety you got when the car vastly underestimated your range because it assumed you were in 40…

>Why would you want your previous driving habits to affect the base level estimation?

Because I could still just look at how much charge I had, the same way I look at how much gas I have left in the tank of my car. My old Mazda 2 gives estimated miles left in the tank based on a dead simple math calculation of average mpg for the previous X number of miles driven with only two inputs; gas consumption rate and miles driven. No time machine needed because it is an estimate and I am an adult with a functioning brain. I already know how big my gas tank is. I already know what my "EPA" mileage is. Telling me those things is not giving me an estimate, its just reminding me of what's printed in the owners manual. It is pathetic that my old cheap car gives me an actual estimate using actual data from my actual car and Tesla doesn't...until its under 50% and then suddenly its ok.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#223

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #176
radlad wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've never owned a gas vehicle that met it's EPA range and the Tesla is no different. No one takes EPA MPG * GALLONS of gas and expects it to be a real life estimate of range. Why is this exactly? It's been true - MPG is lower than estimated - of every vehicle I've owned too except for my most recent, a '23 MX-5 (i.e. a sports car, which I tend to drive at higher RPMs and in lower gears.) I'm getting spot-on or a…

Consider yourself lucky. Off the top of my head both Ford and Subaru were subject to lawsuits about vehicles not meeting EPA range expectations. When I had an outback I was very lucky to get 17MPG and the EPA range on the window sticker was 27 which felt really deceptive.

27 hwy? My 2013 STI gets like 23/19 on a good day and requires 93 oct or higher. oof!

My fuel efficiency is horrid and advertised to be horrid.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#224

Post by modo_mario »

everdrive wrote: post #112

This really shouldn’t be read as a defense of EV companies, but I think there is just a learning curve for EVs which people really haven’t grappled with yet. Here is a minor list of things which will reduce range pretty significantly: - Driving over 50 MPH - Using the AC - Using the heat - Driving in extreme cold or extreme heat - Driving in an area with a lot of hills. (From what I can tell regenerative braking make…

What you say about the reduced range makes sense but I don't fully trust the decision on what range to show to have all the right motives in this case when many other manufcaturers (also in ICE vehicles) adjust their shown range based on recent drives. Tesla does do this if you plan a route so they are certainly capable but unlike the mentioned toyotas, bmw's, etc they choose to use the unchanging unrealistic estimate that gets a lot of people in trouble. Given that they also stonewall when its about issues that people can't affect with their driving style or can be a matter of opinion I don't feel inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and say maybe people should adjust their behaviour and expectations. If they are given more accurate mileage by default then it's after all much easier for them to make those considerations and realisations about what affects it.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#225

Post by Dalewyn »

malwrar wrote: post #158
jvanderbot wrote: post #8

I have a model Y. I hate almost everything about it. But most germane, The "Battery meter" at the top of the display is total bunk. That's got to be "rosy" numbers. It'll display a the battery in miles, but it's at least 25% inflated. However if you punch in a destination, you'll get exact numbers, and those are insanely reliable. It claims (and I don't believe any claims coming from tesla) that it'll factor wind, el…

I actually got stranded once for some hours because of the mileage indicator! Was driving back from a campsite that I turned out to not have charging compatibility with, but thought I had plenty of margin to get to the nearest charger. As I drove through the mountains however, I began noticing that a.) my battery was depleting much faster than expected and b.) I wasn’t seeing any houses and very few motorists. I watc…

This really is an extreme and specific example, but risks like this are why most people want lots (lots) of range and why gas/diesel cars won't die out any time soon.

The sheer ease of mind that comes with having densely packed energy that can be replenished at a moment's notice practically anywhere should not be disregarded easily. Maybe battery tech can get there some day, but it's certainly not today.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#226

Post by ethanbond »

eatporktoo wrote: post #212

I'm surprised by the reaction to this article. 1. The range is set by the EPA. They are the ones that do the testing and validate the claims. The EPA should fix their range guidelines for EVs. Maybe a summer and winter range would be more appropriate? 2. Tesla should have a better UI for range, but really they should just show the percentage. Acting like it is a conspiracy is a bit extreme. They are just doing EPA Ra…

> “We’re looking at the range, and you literally see the number decrease in front of your eyes,” he said of his dashboard range meter.

From the third paragraph

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#227

Post by ethanbond »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #219
jvanderbot wrote: post #8

I have a model Y. I hate almost everything about it. But most germane, The "Battery meter" at the top of the display is total bunk. That's got to be "rosy" numbers. It'll display a the battery in miles, but it's at least 25% inflated. However if you punch in a destination, you'll get exact numbers, and those are insanely reliable. It claims (and I don't believe any claims coming from tesla) that it'll factor wind, el…

"I hate almost everything about it." Not owning a car only using rentals, I still think Tesla has the best and most intuitive UI. I can find everything easily, whereas in a SUVs from Skoda/VW/Audi/BMW/Renault/... it's hard to find things - at least for me. What I do hate about the Model Ys we rented is the noise! Wind/wheel noise is as loud at 100km/h as a BMW at 150km/h - I guess they do this to safe weight and incr…

> I guess they to this to safe weight and increase range, but it makes the trips very unpleasant.

Or, you know, margins.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#228

Post by 542354234235 »

swader999 wrote: post #190

I rode ebikes for commuting about 15 years ago. Looking at electric cars, I need at least double whatever specs they state for max range. So if I need 400 miles for instance, I need to find a manufacture promising 800. Wind, cold, age of battery, emergency reserve etc all play into it.

Battery tech has changed a lot since 2008.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#229

Post by stetrain »

Merad wrote: post #121
londons_explore wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery meter at the top is EPA range - ie. the official range measurement method, in basically ideal conditions. The routefinder 'learns' from your previous driving habits. Driving style easily has a 50% impact on range between "drives 50 mph slipstreaming behind a truck" and "drives 90 mph and brakes aggressively at every corner".

There's no reason why Tesla can't calculate the accurate range in both places, is there? My 2022 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid has a "distance to empty" number that "learns" based on your driving habits and typical mileage. It's not perfect, for example going on a road trip can throw it off (the hybrid gets significantly lower highway MPG than around town), but most of the time it's very accurate.

They do have a range estimate based on recent driving, it’s just in a separate Energy page.

“Accurate range” is difficult. It could be accurate based on recent driving, but that number could be very inaccurate if there is a change in weather or you are taking a different kind of drive than your last one.

Re: Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

#230

Post by [deleted] »

tekla wrote: post #186
cevn wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use navigation, almost ever, after the first place I go somewhere. Therefore, the main battery estimator is just wrong. If it actually worked, as soon as you got to highway speeds you would see it half. Hiding the real estimation behind the navigation tool is cowardly

How is that any different from a ICE car? How is the car supposed to know how much energy you might be using in the future? Last time I checked, no ICE car has the ability to predict the future.

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