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Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

privacy.thenexus.today

221–230 of 458 posts

Re: Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

#221
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point they're making is that Meta is in a special place, where by using their unusually vast amounts of personal data and photos, they are somehow (?) going to dox anonymous users by publishing their real names, based on matching their profiles in some way. At least that is the implication based on the quoted tweet right at the top of the post (which is lacking any real detail how exactly Meta got this pe…

> they are somehow (?) going to dox anonymous users by publishing their real names, based on matching their profiles in some way. Aren't there laws against that? are there even allow to build internal links between FB/IG accounts without user consent?

Have you read the terms of service?

Any rights that they are allowed to strip from you are gone as part of the ToS.

Unless there is a law saying what you said explicitly, then 100% for certain Meta gives themselves permission to do it when you sign up for either service.

Re: Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

#222
My prediction on how this goes down...

Meta has zero interest in ActivityPub or the Fediverse, a tiny speckle of users hostile to them. In less than a week, they've created an "instance" 50 times the size of all of Mastodon and the rest of the fediverse combined. The projection/goal is to grow towards 1B MAU, which would make it 500 times larger than all of the rest of the fediverse.

Why would Meta possibly care about this tiny group of misfits? The only reason I can think of is to give legislators the idea that they are "doing good".

Say it is done, and we have this Threads cosmos-sized instance. Tiny vocal Mastodon instances will defederate out of principle, and nobody cares. Because they are anti-growth anyway, they object to anything.

Larger Mastodon instances will consider federating but will then find out Threads will only do this under conditions. You have to serve ads, have to comply with a moderation policy, treat user data in a certain way. You effectively work for Meta now, but unpaid.

Then you turn the thing on and the flood gates open. The first thing you'll notice is your bankruptcy as your few tens of thousands of users now having follow access to a billion users, including very active and popular ones, spiking your infra. 10x? 100x? Who knows? And what about storage? Yesterday I've read how a mid-sized Mastodon instance (few thousand users) was adding 1GB of media storage every 15 mins. Do that times a 100 (or 1,000) as well. Your moderation inbox...well, good luck.

This entire thing isn't going to work, at all.

Re: Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

#223
post #50

This reminds me of the "embrace, extend, extinguish" strategies Microsoft used extensively with Linux and open source software in the 90s. From [1]: "a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice found that was used internally by Microsoft to describe its strategy for entering product categories involving widely used standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and then using those differences i…

As many others have said before, this isn't very likely to happen for many of the reasons it never happened with the web or Linux. - ActivityPub is an open protocol. If Meta goes all-in on it, they'll be implementing a transparent spec everyone knows. Modifying that would send obvious shockwaves through the network and signal their non-cooperation. There isn't a covert way for them to really try this. - Mastodon itse…

It doesn't have to be a technical strategy, but a UX path to EEE.

I've been thinking about this in terms of Lemmy (also built on ActivityPub), which I understand isn't currently on the table for interop (but if Facebook is after Twitter's lunch, why shouldn't they be after Reddit's). It could even be the same application - Kbin is another AP service which has separate tabs for "link aggregation" and "microblogging" (Reddit and Twitter, respectively).

With Lemmy, the way a large corp could come in and push it around is by simply creating it's own version of the top 100 (or N, whatever) communities, and automatically subscribing users into them based on their interests (already known, due to existing accounts/profiles elsewhere). c/linux on lemmy.ml has ~6k subscribers, and is the largest Linux community on Lemmy, afaict. It's not unreasonable to think a large corp willing to pull in its existing userbase couldn't increase that by an order of magnitude in very short order. Overnight, those communities become the place where conversations are happening on those topics (maybe even with some pre-seeded content) and the existing lemmy communities stagnate.

Fast forward a while and one day BigCorp decides to pull the plug. Existing non-BigCorp Lemmy users are now separated from the communities they've been in and need to create BigCorp accounts. You could argue that those non-BigCorp Lemmy users are no worse off than they are pre-BigCorp-federation, but they're effectively migrating their communities all over again.

As far as why, I think it's pretty invaluable for Facebook to:

1) appear to be "playing ball" from a regulatory aspect 2) eat a competitor's lunch 3) control a (potentially!) up and coming federated service

Re: Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

#224
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I stopped reading the article once it mentioned people getting annoyed and wanting to control who sees their public content. You don't get to make that call. The community doesn't get to make that call. The protocol makes that call and the protocol allows anybody to view stuff you post publicly. You don't get to say "I publish this but Meta can't view it". Not even legally you don't. That's not privacy and no am…

Your understanding is flawed. Copyright is 100% okay with transitively controlling production of content. After all how else would you describe someone allowing Netflix to stream your content? You can't restream Netflix and Netflix is restricted on how it can stream to you. Both rooted in the original Copyright protection and the licenses to content given out by intermediaries. Most posting platforms give themselves…

It's not that simple. If I sell you a book, I cannot place a restriction on that sale saying you can't resell that book (first sale doctrine). You're allowed to do that because you own the copy of the book. You can't copy the book and sell it, because you don't own the copyright, but you can sell the original copy, show it to whomever you want, etc. It's not that "copyright is okay with transitive licensing" but more that "copyright simply prevents you from copying a work you didn't create (or otherwise don't have copyrights over)". That's all it does.

If you want to place downstream restrictions on your content then you have to license it (and get someone to agree to your license). You have rights over how you license content. Yes. And users may agree that they're only "viewing" a copy and don't in fact own it when engaging with your licensed content, sure. But my main point was that you don't get to publish content to the public domain and then say oh wait no I didn't want Meta to see that oops #privacy #cancelmeta. And further that it's kinda silly to imagine a world where everyone licenses every little toot they make. At some point we're in a public forum and we just all need to understand what that means, including that someone you don't like might be listening.

Anyway, I don't think licensing content is a positive thing for society. It may benefit media conglomerates, but not individuals. Arguably, creators shouldn't be allowed to say "Netflix you can stream this content to users but not in Brazil". I don't think it's a sealed deal that downstream restrictions on content distribution are healthy or in any way in the public interest. Charging a royalty for a views/streams of some show is one thing. Saying "only on Tuesdays and not in Brazil" gives too much control to creators to dictate how their art should be interpreted. And nobody can prevent you from using Netflix to stream a show to your Brazilian friend on the couch next to you... nor should they ever be able to. That would be really really bad technology, were it to exist.

So short of attaching licenses to every post you make, no, there's not a socially healthy, let alone even viable, strategy to control content distribution in the "fediverse".

Re: Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

#225

If you have personal information you do not wish bad actors to see, do not publish it using an open protocol explicitly designed to allow anyone to read said information. Defederating from Meta as a solution is stupid - Meta can (and will if they actually care enough) just rejoin undercover. Furthermore, when it comes to the fediverse, Meta is actually one of the more trusted actors compared to whatever else is on th…

> If you have personal information you do not wish bad actors to see, do not publish it using an open protocol explicitly designed to allow anyone to read said information.

you seem to not even have read the first paragraph, or not understood what it imples

the whole point of this article is that meta has a precendence of aggregating and combining data from all kind of sources. This includes data which is not supposed to be public, but e.g. was sold without your knowledge, awareness or explicit consent. A situation you could argue the huge majority of people on the internet is in.

For example consider this hypothetical scenario:

So they might take the supposed to be public data of e.g. your anonymous political activism (lets say anti corruption in a very corrupt country).

Then take a public profile you created e.g. in your teens, which you never linked or used the same email address with as you politic profile and should have no connection at all (you acted carefully).

But then meta is like, oh see through the data we bought/own we know that that profile was using that (non public) email address and through other data we brought we know that that email is belived to be owned by the same person as that other email (e.g. you used is for forwarding or account recovery, also non public) so we conclude they are the same and publish *to the whole world trivially accessible that the anonymous political activists is you*.

Or another scenario: They used AI body/face recognition to make the link even through you never posted the face in you anonymous account without appropriate masking or at all.

Or another scenario: Metadata of locations leaked through the usage of social media created the link.

Or another scenario: Someone marks you on a image they took without your consent (and/or knowledge), doesn't matter if they later delete it or make it only visible to their frinds followers.

Or in other words as long as you don't live as a complete hermit and have far above average tech knowledge and also treat absurdly careful to a point where it causing major annoyance in your life stuff like that can totally happen to you.

This is why the GDPR was created to make it illegal to aggregate information about third parties without their consent in surprising ways. But it's also where it failed the hardest to archive it's goals you could say (but thats a different discussion altogether).

Re: Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what’s wrong about details on bunches of whore - people engaged in the oldest professional occupation known to humanity, no less - scraped into Meta systems, as a replica ? It’ll end up in recording, representing, normalizing birth control as well as commercial sexwork and also current status and known issues around it. It’s just Mastodon movement or whatever it calls itself don’t want to be associated with shady…

Because famously, shining light on a community of people that are hated only results in that community becoming accepted. Please ignore the people who die and are harmed in the process.

yeah, segregation and gatekeeping wash clean, and feels great doing too.

Re: Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

#227
post #83
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point they're making is that Meta is in a special place, where by using their unusually vast amounts of personal data and photos, they are somehow (?) going to dox anonymous users by publishing their real names, based on matching their profiles in some way. At least that is the implication based on the quoted tweet right at the top of the post (which is lacking any real detail how exactly Meta got this pe…

The only entity that could realistically tell us how Meta linked the profile to that person's real name is Meta, and they aren't likely to share that information — so it's not exactly surprising that the tweet lacks detail on the matter.

Phone numbers and recovery email addresses?

Re: Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

#228

https://news.yahoo.com/teen-mom-plead-guilty-abortion-230802... >A Nebraska woman has pleaded guilty to helping her daughter have a medication abortion last year. The legal proceeding against her hinged on Facebook's decision to provide authorities with private messages between that mother and her 17-year-old daughter discussing the latter's plans to terminate her pregnancy. If you have information you don't want oth…

> If you have information you don't want others to know, then don't tell your secrets to a multi-billion dollar pseudo-governmental organization that has even less data collection protections than the governments it serves.

that's such a naive egoistic apathetic world view it baffles me

sometimes I wonder if posting stuff like that just don't understand how humans and societies work, or just don't care because "they know better".

Re: Blocking Threads won't be enough to protect privacy once they join the Fediverse

#229
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you don’t, which is why I think federated systems built on the existing stack are doomed to fail (by recentralizing). You’re right to point out email as an example of this failure. You need urbit or something like it to fix it, the problems are deeper. https://martiancomputing.substack.com/p/tlon-urbit-computing...

I am continually impressed by how much more relevant Urbit has become (contrary to people years ago arguing it would fade out into irrelevancy). Urbit was designed holistically to solve the problems the "web 2" internet experienced in a structural way, not just apply some fancy "web 3" bandaids to some them. So of course it is a lofty project. But time and again it's proven that it took the right stance on socio-tech…

I work at Tlon (the main startup behind urbit, so disclaimer) - it's a lot easier to use urbit now than it used to be thanks to free hosting.

It needs to be a lot easier still (particularly the mobile experience isn't there yet without a fully formed app), but if it's been a while it's worth checking out again: https://tlon.io/

It'll be insanely hard to actually pull off, but it's the only attempt in this space that I think has a legitimate chance of a successful outcome. The others are dead on arrival because they don't actually fix the underlying issues. (Success being widespread adoption of software the users actually own and control.)

I personally self-host mine which has also gotten a lot easier too: https://martiancomputing.substack.com/p/product-review-nativ...

The UX needs to be just as good as a centralized service - I think urbit is the only design where that's really plausible (without recentralizing).

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