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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

cnn.com

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Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#221

Post by wizofaus »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #212
wizofaus wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never thought reducing emissions was the reason for trying to reduce disposable plastic bag usage, though I don't doubt many might believe it does.

The messaging I saw in NYC when the ban was coming in was all about carbon footprint. Do you think the reason is reducing plastic pollution? Because it went up in Australia after their plastic bag ban, since those plastic bags were replaced by heavier plastic bin liners: https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/plastic-bag-... I think the "bailey" of plastic bag ban proponents is the sea life that gets stuck i…

I wouldn't exactly pay to much attention to news.com.au as a reliable source for whether a pro-environmental policy has been effective. I'm personally skeptical about the likely overall effectiveness of plastic bag bans, but I've seen no evidence that increased use of bin liners has somehow made plastic pollution worse here- and for me it is absolutely the blight of seeing loose bits of plastic ending up in the natural environment (both in and out of the ocean) that I'm most keen to see reduced.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#222

Post by deepsquirrelnet »

jimbob45 wrote: post #207
superseeplus wrote: post #172

A big proportion of the opposition is coming from New Jersey where former Governor Chris Christie systematically diverted public transit funding to constructing more roads leaving NJ Transit with a maintenance backlog, inadequate infrastructure and unhappy workers who were poached by the MTA. This resulted in a mismatch where the infrastructure is designed to favor driving on one side of the river and a fee designed…

[flagged]

Until primaries are over, primary candidates of national parties mostly attack their opponents… (hint: their opponents are other candidates in their primary)

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#223

Post by superseeplus »

bilalq wrote: post #200
superseeplus wrote: post #172

A big proportion of the opposition is coming from New Jersey where former Governor Chris Christie systematically diverted public transit funding to constructing more roads leaving NJ Transit with a maintenance backlog, inadequate infrastructure and unhappy workers who were poached by the MTA. This resulted in a mismatch where the infrastructure is designed to favor driving on one side of the river and a fee designed…

There's more reason for NJ residents to take issue with this. In central jersey, it costs at least $20/person for a round trip ticket. If you go with your family or a group of friends filling a 5 seat car, the train costs $100 just to get into the city and then get hit with whatever additional costs you have for the next few subway rides. Gas, parking, and carpool bridge/tunnel toll prices don't add up to anywhere ne…

But if there are 5 people in a car, the congestion pricing ends up costing each person less than it would cost someone driving alone. In a way, this discourages people using the road space inefficiently in favor of people like you and your friends who are using it more efficiently.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#224

Post by ericmay »

comte7092 wrote: post #209
bilalq wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more reason for NJ residents to take issue with this. In central jersey, it costs at least $20/person for a round trip ticket. If you go with your family or a group of friends filling a 5 seat car, the train costs $100 just to get into the city and then get hit with whatever additional costs you have for the next few subway rides. Gas, parking, and carpool bridge/tunnel toll prices don't add up to anywhere ne…

Regressive if you ignore all of the other costs associated with driving. Drivers always love to make this argument, but it presupposes that everyone already owns and insures a car. At the end of the day it’s car dependence that is regressive.

Yea it also ignores that if everybody stopped riding the $100 train then you’d never actually be able to drive into the city, let alone park anywhere for under $100.

Also, this is a deliberate choice. They can improve train services and lower costs. Idk why people who ostensibly are market oriented are so fixated on current prices and assuming they can’t change or be improved upon. Germany is an example $49 for a ticket for all (I think) transit.

Another thing while I’m at it - how much does your car, insurance, gas, maintenance, tires, and other things cost? How much money per month are you paying to pay for the roads and highways? Etc. It’s hard to do a fair apples to apples comparison here either way.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#225

Post by mrkstu »

comte7092 wrote: post #209
bilalq wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more reason for NJ residents to take issue with this. In central jersey, it costs at least $20/person for a round trip ticket. If you go with your family or a group of friends filling a 5 seat car, the train costs $100 just to get into the city and then get hit with whatever additional costs you have for the next few subway rides. Gas, parking, and carpool bridge/tunnel toll prices don't add up to anywhere ne…

Regressive if you ignore all of the other costs associated with driving. Drivers always love to make this argument, but it presupposes that everyone already owns and insures a car. At the end of the day it’s car dependence that is regressive.

That doesn't address the underlying issue of family groups being priced out of transportation options altogether.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#226

Post by itsmartapuntocm »

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #167

Hopefully this money goes to policing the subway too, people have a lot of valid safety concerns leading them to take their car or a cab. In India, you have to pass through a metal detector to ride the metro. It seems like in US, we are trending towards needing to do the same thing.

I feel safer riding MARTA here in Atlanta than driving with the other lunatics on the highway.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#227

Post by grumpy_coder »

rileymat2 wrote: post #134
lotsofpulp wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This “poor people will be affected more” is a tired refrain. That is always obviously true, given the consequences of being poor. Not every solution can or has to solve the wealth/income gap. Solve congestion with one solution, solve wealth redistribution with another.

Rationing by payment is only one strategy though. Choosing that strategy brings in wealth disparities. So it is fair to bring it up when that is the chosen strategy.

The actual dollar amount also matters. London's charge has tripled since it was introduced. The unforeseen consequence of this type of charge is it becomes a lever to reduce traffic by forcing poorer people off the roads everyone pays for.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#228

Post by Brian_K_White »

jimbob45 wrote: post #207
superseeplus wrote: post #172

A big proportion of the opposition is coming from New Jersey where former Governor Chris Christie systematically diverted public transit funding to constructing more roads leaving NJ Transit with a maintenance backlog, inadequate infrastructure and unhappy workers who were poached by the MTA. This resulted in a mismatch where the infrastructure is designed to favor driving on one side of the river and a fee designed…

[flagged]

It is entirely explicable why anyone is talking about Christie this week and not last week.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#229

Post by superseeplus »

mrkstu wrote: post #225
comte7092 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regressive if you ignore all of the other costs associated with driving. Drivers always love to make this argument, but it presupposes that everyone already owns and insures a car. At the end of the day it’s car dependence that is regressive.

That doesn't address the underlying issue of family groups being priced out of transportation options altogether.

NJ Transit allows kids under 11 to travel free with a fare paying adult on weekends and holidays. MTA charges them $1 but makes the discount always available.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#230

Post by klipt »

cyberax wrote: post #107
zip1234 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure, let's charge methods of transportation based on negative externalities such as how much space they take, safety, and noise/particulate pollution.

I'm all for it! It would suck for transit, though: 1. It has a higher CO2 footprint than small/medium EVs. 2. Transit forces people into smaller and denser housing, resulting in suboptimal living conditions. 3. Buses in particular result in excessive road wear&tear. It's really amazing that people say things like "car owners should not get subsidized" (by whom?), while talking about transit that is literally infeasib…

Transit is completely feasible without subsidies if the transit company owns the land near the stations, which generate generous rents.

Of course if the land is owned by other people, the increase in value provided by transit should be recaptured through a Land Value Tax which is then used to fund the transit.

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