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Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

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Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#221
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t this just playing a trick with system boundaries though? If I hire my son to do my yard work instead of my neighbor, how does that make my son objectively worse off? Within system/family, obviously this has increased wealth compared to hiring my neighbor. Without system, it has only made me worse off to the proportion that I have "overpaid" my son. But because it's zero-sum, my son has benefited to the exact pr…

If you son can make 4x the hourly rate doing something else and does not do that because he is doing yard work, then you have decreased wealth. The key is in the if.

I agree that forced labor completely changes the scenario. Nobody is forcing my son to do yard work in this scenario though. Both the neighbor and son are willing, but only one can do the work.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#222

Considering that the amount of computing that could be rented for the price of a house every month could now be bought for $20, this isn't surprising. What's surprising is that with all these resources made available to the world, we still have systems that allow hoarding of wealth to such a degree that most people can't afford to own a home and many can barely afford rent and food.

How is that surprising? Those systems are what made that progress possible in the first place. Unless we stop advancing as a species I don't think they will ever go away.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#223
post #60

Wow, I had to check the math and with my assumptions it does in fact take >2 hours of minimum wage labor to power a CFL for 1 year ($7.25/hr, 0.14$ KWh). It's much higher than I expected. I had the notion that turning off CFLs was hardly worth my time but that's not entirely true.

Except this is 2023 and most CFLs are being rapidly replaced with LEDs which require far less power.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#224

Considering that the amount of computing that could be rented for the price of a house every month could now be bought for $20, this isn't surprising. What's surprising is that with all these resources made available to the world, we still have systems that allow hoarding of wealth to such a degree that most people can't afford to own a home and many can barely afford rent and food.

This. A cheap lamp on a table does little good when I can afford neither the table, the roof above it, nor the food to serve at that table.

I've called that argument "Maslow's Smartphone", after an instance where someone literally gave the affordability of smartphones as an argument for present-day wealth, utterly ignoring that both:

1. Telecoms, and increasingly smartphones, are not a luxury but a necessity for functioning in most of today's societies.

2. That a smartphone of and by itself is not sufficient for a thriving existence, with reference to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: food, shelter,

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2vwfb6/maslows...>

There's also Maslow's Swimming Pool, which surfaced in the context of the Greek austerity crisis of the 2010s:

Succinctly: "Yes, we've got a swimming pool. But that won't feed my children."

https://www.dw.com/en/the-human-toll-of-greek-austerity/audi...>

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/3ey7d1/maslows...>

Another variant is to note people showing up to relief services (e.g., food bank, natural disaster aid stations) in SUVs or luxury cars. The fact that someone with evidence of past prosperity is now seeking aid doesn't mean that they're undeserving of same, or should be scorned. It's that misfortune is reaching far beyond its usual populations (the multi-generational poor, disabled, addicted, disempowered groups, etc.).

Julian Bond also calls out self-actualisation snake oil:

There's a special part of hell reserved for the snake oil selling charlatans who push some woo called Reversed Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's much loved by people who talk about "The Secret", life style coaches and executive training. "Be a nice self-actualised person, you'll be full of esteem which will allow you to love others who won't threaten your safety and so the universe will fulfill your bodies needs."

https://web.archive.org/web/20190115030839/https://plus.goog...>

Yet another realisation (also through a G+ discussion) is that Maslow's Hierarchy is best considered not merely as a set of essential and nourishing goods and services, but as being those elements paired with security in those elements. The hand that offers whilst threatening, withdrawing, or threatening is not nurturing but the definition of abuse and trauma.

Living on a knife's edge, at all times, is not tenable.

So, rather than the pyramid of physiological needs, safety, belonging and love, esteem, and self-actualisation, I see:

- Physiological needs + security in those needs.

- Social needs + security in those.

- Esteem (recognition for accomplishments) + security in that status.

- Self-actualisation + security in those achievements.

Maslow splits out security as its own level, but that jars with my own experience of noting times where one or more (and in the worst instances: all) such needs were fulfilled either in a highly contingent manner ("I'll give you X if you do Y", or "If you do Y I'll withhold X"). That's the extreme of manipulation and precarity.

Finally, Yonatan Zunger's essay on "financial shock wealth" is an excellent reframing of the wealth/poverty discussion (from 2017):

https://scribe.rip/newco/your-financial-shock-wealth-4845e6d...>

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m more familiar with the advancements in CRI in recent years than dUV (this is the first I’be heard of that) but LEDs can now be purchased with equivalent CRI. The context of this discussion is incandescent color/perception/experience.

My point is that CRI alone isn't sufficient. Nor is CCT (correlated color temperature). In practice, two bulbs with the same CRI and color temperature can have drastically different tints. It all boils down to how these measurements work. In practice, the vast vast majority of LED bulbs do not even remotely come close to the color reproduction of halogen. Not to mention the flicker response to 60hz wall power. There…

I can’t recommend Waveform Lighting’s 95 CRI products highly enough!

The wonderful warmth of incandescent (depending on your color temp prefs) with no wasted IR energy in the form of heat. What’s funny is that your mind will perceive it as hot because we’ve been conditioned to expect it from light at that color temp.

Reasonable price, too, but more expensive than bulbs from the big box store. For something that lasts 10-18 years, it’s worth it to me.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#226
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that CRI alone isn't sufficient. Nor is CCT (correlated color temperature). In practice, two bulbs with the same CRI and color temperature can have drastically different tints. It all boils down to how these measurements work. In practice, the vast vast majority of LED bulbs do not even remotely come close to the color reproduction of halogen. Not to mention the flicker response to 60hz wall power. There…

I can’t recommend Waveform Lighting’s 95 CRI products highly enough! The wonderful warmth of incandescent (depending on your color temp prefs) with no wasted IR energy in the form of heat. What’s funny is that your mind will perceive it as hot because we’ve been conditioned to expect it from light at that color temp. Reasonable price, too, but more expensive than bulbs from the big box store. For something that lasts…

Their bulbs don't last anywhere near that long for me but I continue to buy them because nothing else comes close in terms of color rendition.

I find the 3700k is perfect for my tastes.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#227

> Back in the prehistoric era a person would have to gather, chop and burn wood for roughly 10 hours a day for six days straight in order to produce the equivalent light of a modern lightbulb shining for about an hour. This feels like a very odd comparison/metric. It doesn't really matter how many lumens/watts it has, I think a better metric is "How much does it take to 'comfortably' light a single room for 1 hour".…

Also the fact the wood would be used for heating and/or cooking too

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#228
post #8

Mildly weird piece, in that it's really measuring two things; lighting efficiency (and only at an extremely low resolution, implying a whole-system efficiency that doesn't change between the invention of the light bulb and the fluorescent light) and wage growth. 60 hours of work may have bought 72 hours of electric light in 1880, but rather more in 1990, say, for a combination of both reasons. That said, LED bulbs do…

LEDs released->electricity bill reduced->money freed up->wages increase->price of everything else increases

It's nice to see these efficiency gains aren't entirely eaten up in this way and the is some ultimate benefit for humans, $1 2023 >= $1 1990 as far as lighting, and wages are up. You can have the lights on more and keep the same quality of life in all other regards. But this can be used to mask growing inequality, just take some but not all of the gains, e.g. by artificially limiting housing supply, QoL still improves so no revolution.

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#229
post #90

This thread needs a Mod. Knew it would have racism and I were stupid enough to read along.

"If you flag the bad comment, that alerts moderators. In egregious cases, email hn@ycombinator.com so we can look at it sooner."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20179759>

Re: Amount of work that once bought an hour of light now buys 51 years of it (2017)

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just use an LED that produces the same color. They 100% exist. I agree that incandescent is better than cold LED. A little shopping and consumer research will 100% find you exactly the LED you want.

They don't. Even the highest end ultra high CRI bulbs don't have the same CRI and dUV as a good halogen bulb for example.

I'd thought halogens weren't being banned, but apparently they are (in the US).

Though the concern seems to be mercury content --- CFLs are also subject to the ban, according to April 2022 accounts:

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/3463992-biden-...>

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