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Rust: The wrong people are resigning

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Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#221

Post by DiggyJohnson »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #102
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vehemently disagree. Unless there is reason to suspect race is a factor, which there is none in this case, then discussion should move on the issue at hand, and speculation about racism should be discouraged or ignored. Your perspective, while well intentioned, is exactly the sort that drives needless division and suspicion in modern discourse.

I vehemently disagree. The possible motives of those in power should always be looked at with a microscope, unless they give us comprehensive reasons as to the decisions they made. Your perspective, while well intentioned, is exactly the sort that drives implicit bias and a disregard for minority considerations or reasoning that the decision makers don't personally relate to.

I agree, but it seems you reworded my common with little deviation??

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#222

Post by FranksTV »

CrazyStat wrote: post #138
armchairhacker wrote: post #56

I think this Rust drama is way over-exaggerated. One community member made one decision for one conference which they probably thought wouldn't be a big deal (I understand now that it is, but to an outsider "keynote downgraded to regular presentation" don't seem like much). And now multiple people are leaving the Rust team, and some random commentators are "disgraced" by the Rust Project, and "threatening" to stop us…

> One community member made one decision for one conference which they probably thought wouldn't be a big deal (I understand now that it is, but to an outsider "keynote downgraded to regular presentation" don't seem like much). One person should not have been able to reverse the decision that was made by a collective leadership vote. The fact that was allowed to happen is a failure of governance. One of the people wh…

Part of the problem here is too much collective decision-making.

Sometimes it's much better to just assign someone responsibility for something. Then if they screw up, they can learn from it, or you give the job to someone else.

I think a lot of the issue here is due to the fact that there was seemingly a one week period between the decision being made and it actually being communicated.

And then, because no one has been given authority to make decisions and actually be a leader, then everything they say has to be in this weird passive voice like "It's been decided that.." which makes it sound like a conspiracy when it's really just a fear of delegation.

The ruling committee should nominate someone to do things, and then let them do it. They should never try to actually run things themselves, it's always a disaster.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#224

Post by FranksTV »

Ygg2 wrote: post #175
serial_dev wrote: post #53

these things keep happening and it shows a deeper problem with rust leadership and unaccountability. Just like with the trademark policy fiasco just a month ago (which was also not the first Rust Drama), every community member - from speakers to organizers and regular language users - is confused, frustrated, feeling unappreciated with very slow official response and clarification. I don't want witch hunting, I under…

> Just like with the trademark policy fiasco just a month ago I think those are different. Rust trademark policy is more a case of miscommunication, while this seems more deliberate. Rust Foundation iirc made a draft statement but rather than saying "We'll take community feedback into consideration" went with a much more vague "We'll might take this into consideration". At least that's my impressions. It was fairly b…

Anyone who's written long contracts know you start with some boilerplate that contains a bunch of stuff and gradually whittle it down till it's just what you need.

The error they made was assuming people would understand that process.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#225

Post by swsieber »

capableweb wrote: post #20
gozzoo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gess the point is not to blame whoever did this, but to change the system, so that no single person can have the authority to do something like this again.

Well, saying things like "I can tell you that all the good people who could’ve left haven’t yet, and that all the people who should’ve resigned, haven’t yet." does feel like there are fingers being pointed, but of course it's not clear who they are being pointed at. But I guess the people involved at least know who they are referring to, so at least that's good.

But let it be noted that "should've" != "bad/malicious" (at least, that would be my reading). Rather I think it's more about bad fit and incompetence in a specific responsibility.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#226

Post by FranksTV »

adelarsq wrote: post #19

Would be really good a change no the communication side. But I am without expectations side there where days without any explanation about why a draft for trademark pourposes was so bad. Now working with Rust I have the same feelings as working with Java...

I can explain it for you: when you start writing a long complicated legal agreement, you never start from scratch. You almost always ask your lawyer to prepare the first draft and they take another agreement that's similar to the one you want and find-replace the names and modify a few parts of it. The early draft is never anything close to what you want and the hard work is hammering it into shape.

The document that they circulated was clearly a bunch of boilerplate. They assumed (wrongly) that the wider audience would have the same understanding and view of it that they did: that it was an early draft, subject to change. But the internet is not capable of such nuance.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#227

Post by stoniejohnson »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #220
bluejekyll wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you vehemently disagreeing with me about then?

That race is a reasonable suspicion until barring further explanation/transparency. And additionally the “to be clear” refrain.

It might not be reasonable, but it is likely.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#229

Post by npn »

paddw wrote: post #61

There is obviously a lot of criticism justly being leveled at the poor quality of governance on Rust thus far, but I think a fair point I haven't seen raised is, what other languages lacking a corporate sponsor as the primary driver of governance have done better? (and why) Python is the main example I can think of after graduating from governance via BDFL, but is there any other new language which has achieved the s…

Elixir is pretty popular, and has been adopted by multi big companies. Yet from my experience it does not have any drama whatsoever.
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