Where have all the hackers gone? • Hacker News Board

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#221

Post by manicennui » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:38 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #181

TheDong wrote: post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

> However, as the idea of "programming makes money" became more well known, and bootcamps + college both upped their game, more and more people started coding just with the hopes to make money. To get good enough to make money, not care about "huh, how does the bootloader actually work" or "Why did chrome just crash, let me open up gdb...". To me, bootcamps are a complete red flag when considering candidates. I don't…

Really depends on what your company does. Many (most?) companies are creating some pretty basic CRUD applications. Bootcamp grads are often fine as junior devs at these companies.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#222

Post by dimgl » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:39 PM UTC

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #187

dimgl wrote: post #131

This is an annoying, pretentious article. You don’t need to know all of the intricate internals of a language and its runtime to appreciate its features. Similarly, you don’t need to learn all of the frameworks in the TypeScript ecosystem to be productive in TypeScript. So clearly there’s a disconnect between what the author wishes programming would be and the reality of programming.

> you don’t need to learn all of the frameworks in the TypeScript ecosystem to be productive in TypeScript but you should hold in the back of your head a realization that your understanding of said ecosystem and the compiler is limited. Likely always will be, as there are multiple not stupid people working on it, and there's one of you. It happened to me that I knew how to do X (and then did it) which had been boldly…

Understanding enough about how a system works is super important. But I'm also not naive: I'm never going to fully understand all of the internals of V8 and the TypeScript compiler. And I think that's okay.

I think there's far worse examples, like the 500+ accounts on /r/experienceddevs who continue to yell at everyone how much more productive they are with ChatGPT and how they're getting two weeks of work done in two days. I assure you, they know little to nothing about the black box they're feeding prompts to.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#223

Post by sublinear » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

Xenoamorphous wrote: post #4

Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. He talks about a "friend" and then proceeds to say things like "To be honest, I suspect he didn't know or think much about them" or "This was not a fruitful conversation". How is that supposed friend, who might very well be aware of this person's blog, going to feel after reading this? Is it a cultur…

> How is that supposed friend, who might very well be aware of this person's blog, going to feel after reading this?

Don't worry. The friend is probably imaginary just for the story.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#224

Post by rlpb » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

sph wrote: post #219

TheDong wrote: post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

> I think the reason, plain and simple, is that most developers aren't really in it for the passion anymore, but rather the money. This site is a prime example. There can't be a post about a non-mainstream programming language without someone's comment saying "I don't get the point of this, it is really hard to hire for/it would be really hard to pick up for junior developers." It seems every small project, library,…

> It seems that on here, the nucleus of hackers has remained more or less constant since 2010, while all other demographics flooded in.

I think this also describes those working on software in general. Everyone uses the same interesting-to-hackers low level parts of the stack. But the nature of software is that _use_ scales infinitely, so roughly the same small quantity of developers are needed the same as was needed in the 90s.

But technology use has exploded, so there's huge demand for developers working higher up in the stack, because the need for domain specific apps has exploded and that part doesn't scale. So the 90s hackers continue but are now dwarfed by app developers and web developers are many orders of magnitude more numerous.

Unfortunately because software is a commodity the use of the low level parts of the stack doesn't translate to money for the hackers working on them. Because just as it's a niche interest for developers in that area, so it's a niche business case to make money out of working in that area.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#225

Post by sublinear » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

chefandy wrote: post #170

Kalium wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been my experience that in conversations about AI, literally nobody actually wants empathy. People want to talk about empathy and deplore the people they disagree with as lacking it. The underlying assumption and implication is that a person experiencing genuine empathy would both display it in some legible manner and agree with the speaker's positions on things. In short, the idea of empathy is weaponized. Perh…

a) I was responding to an admittedly off-topic comment, and not the article. b) Your argument that people solely use empathy as a kudgel to get their way is not reflected in reality. What you describe is emotional manipulation, and as far as I can tell, you're essentially arguing that all calls for empathy in conversation are emotional manipulation... which is ridiculous. c) Simply speaking about people respectfully…

> you're essentially arguing that all calls for empathy in conversation are emotional manipulation... which is ridiculous.

Is it? I'm pretty sure people in positions of authority are mentioning empathy constantly while it's rarely mentioned in polite conversation.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#226

Post by Mezzie » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

TheDong wrote: post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

This is very astute.

I'd like to add that the pipeline for child/adolescent hackers that existed in the pre-00s is basically non-existent. The only major path that still exists that I can think of is game modding.

I'm a third-generation techie on both sides of my family (my paternal grandpa (b. ~1915) got started working with TVs and their mechanical parts and my maternal grandmother (b. mid 1920s) learned C in the 70s) and there are several parts of my upbringing that I don't think could be replicated. For instance, I got started with web work in the 90s, which meant that a.) nobody knew what they were doing and the lack of formal structure combined with the cultural appreciation for competence meant that children could do 'real' work and I loved helping with 'real' work and b.) there was no age limit to participation and no legal liability since most of it wasn't commercial.

There were also child-specific parts of the Web that were built by actual children instead of corporations meant to siphon money from parents. A large draw was being able to act without needing adult intermediaries. I could make a website about Sailor Moon or toys or start a chat/IRC room and control the discussions I had and kick adults or anybody who was inappropriate. (10 year olds are great dictators).

There are almost no pathways into tech now that revolve around tech as play and I think that's where a lot of hackers came from.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#227

Post by bcrosby95 » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

MrJohz wrote: post #163

VoodooJuJu wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. You are absolutely correct. This place is populated with quite a few nerds. Nerds typically have subpar social skills, which is is both fueled by and results in a lack of empathy. >"I ♥ people; look for ways to make them happy, and empower them." The propaganda arm of the Soviets is called "Pravda",…

I get what you're saying, but I think the "nerds typically have subpar social skills" meme is often used as an excuse for behaviour that shouldn't be acceptable anywhere. I'm not even sure it's that true. Most of the more capable people I've worked with have been very emotionally intelligent, and I don't think I've ever found nerdy behaviour to be a useful judge of genuine skill or interest in a subject. But in a rep…

Acting "properly" socially is exhausting for me. I mostly avoid social gatherings because of it. For stuff for the kids I just focus on them and let my wife handle the adults.

For things my wife wants me to go to (without the kids), I will go, but I tend to just sit there and not talk. I'm fine observing. People find that socially awkward, but her friends are used to it by now.

My friends are used to me sometimes saying weird/crazy shit.

Think about it like this: yes, I can act properly. But it's like work. I would rather leave work at work.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#228

Post by munificent » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:51 PM UTC

> Today, we're afraid to do anything that's not JavaScript, Java, Python, or Ruby. I have a feeling 10 years from now it'll just be JS. We all read that excellent McKinley article about "innovation tokens" and we decided to be floor-avoiders instead of ceiling-breakers. Engineering leaders lead from a place of fear and risk-aversion instead of optimism and believing in their team. Where have all the c̶o̶w̶b̶o̶y̶s̶ hackers gone?

I think this reflects a larger cultural trend of fear, pessimism, and scarcity.

When we have spare capacity and a belief that we'll have spare capacity in the future, it's psychologically much easier to take risks, be whimsical, try things, explore, and give the benefit of the doubt.

When times are lean, the natural human response is to hunker down, hoard what we have, hustle, and do our best to survive.

It's just not a great time in the world right now.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#229

Post by volkk » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:52 PM UTC

bravetraveler wrote: post #202

Xeoncross wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> financial incentive to work on big boring software engineering using the same skills This is so true: as I've made more, my github has grown more silent.

Similarly, as I've been promoted (and spend more time advising), my skills have atrophied I used to be excellent at kernel hacking, random Linux things that would often be several-weeks trials. Now that I'm not 'in it' constantly, mostly just advising, I've lost a lot of that sharpness Doesn't help the onslaught of the day really kills my desire to learn/play around

not to beat the constant drum of anti-capitalism, but this is the effect that we get when every company is for-profit and massive growth. curiosity doesn't have a direct path to profit, and so most people are stuck working on moving metrics, and nothing else.

one can make the argument "well you have free time on the side, just do it then if youre truly interested" but realistically most people, myself included, are completely braindead after work. i have a lot of interests and hobbies but i can only find 2-3 hours on the weekends to get into them because i am mentally drained and shot after a day of work full of (mostly) pointless meetings. i don't mind work, i NEED work. but, i also need it to be fulfilling, motivating and the function of those is to me at least, seeing a positive effect on society. i imagine most people deep down inside want to help the world in some way.

this is the life we've created for ourselves in the USofA. R&D/curiosity is reserved for certain demographics, and that's not even saying ONLY the privileged or the rich, that includes young people who have energy and drive before it gets hammered in by , or the people who are willing to load up on methamphetamines, or the select few people who truly are amazing at having a 9-5 and being cognitively healthy enough to do brain intensive tasks after work.

the point i'm making here is that we are frogs in boiling water. i remember the days (a decade ago) when I was working and exploring new personal frontiers of interest. Projects at the startups i worked on were exciting and interesting even if they were failures. Nowadays I work at where every work stream is defined by some OKR. Product people have moats and act like feudal warlords. Everything is resume driven development, and the common theme here is more money/income and ultimately capitalistic greed being shoved down everyone's throats. It all sucks. Our culture in America revolves around money and greed, and it's getting worse and worse. Everything glows a certain shade of gray, and soon we'll all be indistinguishable from gray goo

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#230

Post by Mezzie » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

sph wrote: post #219

TheDong wrote: post #74

Have other people observed the sentiment the author observes, around hackers being less common? The author has a list of reasons (VC money, business culture, managers, fear of the unknown). I, personally, have observed this reduction over my career, and I have my own idea of why that might be, my own phrasing of it. Perhaps it gets at the same thing as the author from a different angle. I think the reason, plain and…

> I think the reason, plain and simple, is that most developers aren't really in it for the passion anymore, but rather the money. This site is a prime example. There can't be a post about a non-mainstream programming language without someone's comment saying "I don't get the point of this, it is really hard to hire for/it would be really hard to pick up for junior developers." It seems every small project, library,…

> somehow are here just to post and comment about non-programming topics.

I comment way more on non-programming topics because that's where I think I can contribute - most people on here are better programmers than I am but I have life experiences that are fairly unusual for this particular bubble. I do read the technical posts but I don't have much to say.

As for the 'somehow', I was raised by hackers and I used to be one - I'm too much of a generalist to fully commit to it but I'm 'culturally' a hacker/hacker adjacent. I imagine our ranks are growing for various reasons, which might explain some of the shift.