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'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

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Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#221

Post by voidfunc »

echelon wrote: post #213
adamredwoods wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have two friends whose kids are in two different Seattle middle schools, and the anecdotes we hear are not going well. One middle school was considering getting rid of advanced courses entirely. We're in East Renton, which usually follows Seattle, but they have kept honor courses. In fact, honor courses are encouraged to take, open to everyone, and from what I understand, no one is rejected (possibly only for the…

You're not going to improve the lives of impoverished children by lowering the bar. It's absurd. The best solution I can think of is to pay children to succeed in academics or extracurriculars (STEM, clubs, sports, arts, etc.) A student wouldn't have to be gifted in math, just apply themselves to some interest that drives them. Give them a score-based percentage of $200/mo for hitting certain criteria each month. Pla…

This sounds nice but would quickly be abused by households with shitty parents (gamblers, drug addicts, alcoholics etc) that would take the kids money. Better to somehow subsidize higher education through some kind of credit system they can earn and then use to pay for college later on... of course the problem then is it would have to scale with the rising cost of tuition.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#222

Post by pseudostem »

icelancer wrote: post #183
b59831 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the kids who's families can't afford to move/go to private school pay for the rich family's idealism.

The rich families are not the problem here. The public schools with the tyranny of low expectations are the issue.

I will have to disagree with both you and GP to a certain degree.

A developed country is not where even the poor have cars, it's where even the rich use public transport - a quote attributed to many including LKY.

Extrapolating this to the current argument (disclaimer: not read the article), if the same system is thrust onto the rich and poor alike, it should get better over a period of time, no?

This is a complicated question, thoughts welcome.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#223

Post by seraphsf »

lostmsu wrote: post #180
g9yuayon wrote: post #24

> "Families with resources turn to fee-required online algebra 1 courses in eighth grade, outside the public school system, or enroll their kids in private schools," Isn't this obvious result? The Russian School of Mathematics could manage to teach 10-year old kids basic algebra. And there's AOPS, there's Think Academy, and slew of local tutoring schools who can teach kids relatively advanced maths. Let alone many pr…

For someone unfamiliar, what is Russian School of Math? A private school? An extra curricular activity?

A private, after-school extra curricular program. It’s a national company with many local branches (possibly franchised). Like Kumon, it’s a way for ambitious parents to buy extra academic classes and extra homework for their kids.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#224

Post by testfoobar »

lokar wrote: post #215
prpl wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing above average students (with parents with parents without engineering/science degrees) could take linear algebra and multi variable calculus at university rigor along any other courses they are required to take. Sure, maybe at Paly and Gunn there’s enough to fill a 20 person class, but those are still pretty steep courses which require math majors and not math education majors. If the stu…

At some point the answer should be to support students just taking a class or two at a local university. This is totally reasonable.

This is in fact how the programs are structured at many high schools with dual-enrollment. Most top high schools in the Bay Area offer such options for Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra. What Palo Alto is doing is dropping formal support of the program - in practice that has meant bringing college professors to school sites and providing these classes without fees for students. Without formal support, students have to pay and have to commute.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#225

Post by telotortium »

chii wrote: post #154
User23 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do the resources come from? Also, among those who aren’t willfully ignorant, it’s well known that increasing resources increases inequality. The classic example is height: when resources are low everyone is short. But when resources are plentiful then those with the genes for height tower above those without.

> But when resources are plentiful then those with the genes for height tower above those without. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Those who were short didn't fare worse in absolute terms. They only look worse off by comparison.

That's exactly analogous to SF not offering algebra (for the students without the means to take extracurricular classes, which are disproportionately Black and Hispanic) - none of them get algebra, so they're all worse off in math in the future. With algebra offered, Black and Hispanic students may be less successful on average at algebra than other groups, but at least Black and Hispanic students that can handle algebra get a chance for better math education.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#226

Post by TchoBeer »

danenania wrote: post #208
hedora wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berkeley public schools have a terrible reputation: https://www.greatschools.org/california/berkeley/25-Berkeley... Slightly above average in California is a failing grade by US standards. (California schools are 43rd in the nation.)

If you look at the breakdown of that 7/10 rating, test scores are 9 and “college readiness” an 8, while “equity”, whatever that means, is 4, which is what pulls the overall rating to a 7. This rating is not really a measure of the quality of the school.

A school filled with wealthy families will always have solid readiness and test scores, just because the families can afford whatever help is needed. A quality school wouldn't just let underprivileged children slip through.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#227

Post by testfoobar »

prpl wrote: post #207
testfoobar wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealthy suburbs are cutting advanced classes too. Palo Alto Unified School District is dropping dual-enrolled Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra (classes taken after AP Calculus BC). https://www.paloaltoonline.com/square/2023/03/29/cancellatio...

I have a hard time believing above average students (with parents with parents without engineering/science degrees) could take linear algebra and multi variable calculus at university rigor along any other courses they are required to take. Sure, maybe at Paly and Gunn there’s enough to fill a 20 person class, but those are still pretty steep courses which require math majors and not math education majors. If the stu…

These courses are the next step after Calculus BC. Lots of kids take them with the support of their high school. Paly & Gunn combined have something like 90 kids who take Calc BC their junior year.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#228

Post by jakeinspace »

lokar wrote: post #215
prpl wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing above average students (with parents with parents without engineering/science degrees) could take linear algebra and multi variable calculus at university rigor along any other courses they are required to take. Sure, maybe at Paly and Gunn there’s enough to fill a 20 person class, but those are still pretty steep courses which require math majors and not math education majors. If the stu…

At some point the answer should be to support students just taking a class or two at a local university. This is totally reasonable.

My senior year math course (after Calc BC in grade 11) was discrete math at the community college across the street. Felt a little embarrassing for us to take up half the classroom, sitting next to adults, and realizing that most of us high schoolers were towards the top of the class. But other than that unfortunate situation, I think it was a good system, and if anything, cheaper for the school district than finding someone to teach in-house.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#229

Post by voidfunc »

WalterBright wrote: post #203
mdorazio wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They need the math!!! Serious question: for what? Basic algebra, yes. And basic geometry is handy in many jobs as well. But beyond that?

Failing to understand compound interest leads to a lifetime of poor financial management.

Compound interest can be taught in about 5 minutes.

Re: 'Algebra for none' fails in San Francisco

#230

Post by zdragnar »

brnaftr361 wrote: post #152
zdragnar wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Memorizing things like SOHCAHTOA and FOIL may not be a vital life skill for everyone, but everyone can benefit from the base logical thinking required to identify a variable, break a problem down into steps, plan and execute a solution. At a bare minimum, the basics of algebra (and to a lesser extent precalc, such as understanding limits and differentials) foster a type of abstract thinking and skills that pretty muc…

Can you define what you mean by abstract thinking skills? Everything else you've listed can be acquired as a dishwasher or a line cook. Anyways, the classes always seemed to me to tend more towards shut up and calculate than they did building a robust understanding and perhaps most important of it all: a mathematical intuition. I always found it profoundly stupid that there were never any essay questions in math, I e…

I grew up in the midwest US, and what we called "word problems" were a pretty common component to learning (classes), practicing (homework) and verification (testing). The one that stuck with me is the explanation of how speedometers and police radars actually calculate speed using derivatives in pre/entry calculus. We also learned to write very basic proofs. I would consider both of these to be the essay equivalent of mathematics.

Students who didn't show an interest in higher maths courses either took slower versions of the earlier courses where they could get more time with the material, or more business oriented maths such as basic statistics and accounting.

AP Calculus was the closest I experienced to "shut up and calculate", if only because our teacher somehow managed to get behind the lesson plan in our first week and we ended up doing homework for lessons the night before the class where she would actually explain it. That was the second most brutal experience of my academic career, only after the semester in college where I was taking a macro economics course taught by a Polish grad student and a micro econ course taught by a Greek grad student; neither of them pronounced things (especially, and perhaps obviously, the greek letters in equations) the same way, and it turned into a nightmare keeping things straight.

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