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Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

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Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#221

Post by kelseyfrog »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #119
wongarsu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what happens in practice, but the idealized version of science (like if you properly apply the scientific method in your backyard with no outside influence) is an iterative process for getting closer to the truth. Or maybe closer to an accurate model of reality, since "truth" is a bit of a weird concept. Of course the end point ("truth") may be unreachable, and often we get stuck in local maxima until someone…

It's... not? It's an iterative process to come to a deeper and more complete understanding of any subject, with the quality of the result being measured by how well predictions based on that understanding correspond to observation. Science does not concern itself with "truth", it leaves that to the philosophers. Instead, it concerns itself with finding models and the (often vast ) set(s) of preconditions that must ho…

> It's not that we don't know whether we can find truth, it's that we know that we can't.

And that's just for external reality. Science can't penetrate subjective experience for reasons unrelated to incompleteness, event horizons, or uncertainty principles.

I've a strong opinion that folks tend to confuse the objective and subjective by misapplying preferences or experience as "is" in far too many circumstances and too many disagreements are people attempting to dominate the objective with their personal subjective. Language, rather than helping clarify, tends to muddy the waters in these cases too.

As part of a larger project that you touched on, I believe it's important to convey the bounds of science as an epistemological process. There are other epistemological frameworks to draw on that do cover these areas and likely new ones to discover or create. If you couldn't tell, I'm an epistemological pluralist.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#223

Post by quickthrower2 »

krapp wrote: post #47
quickthrower2 wrote: post #20

Assuming there is one “truth” is usually a mistake.

“When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together” ― Isaac Asimov

Yes there are these kinds of facts and then there is the stuff software engineers argue about. For example “magic numbers in code is bad practice”.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#224

Post by cassac »

Whenever I read these articles about being kinder in the truth, which I think people can be, I think there needs to be a follow up about how you should also be more accepting of the truth. One side should work to be less offensive and the other side to be less offended. It seems like the articles are always for one side and I’m not sure why that is.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#225

Post by eyelidlessness »

falcolas wrote: post #220
eyelidlessness wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Saying that someone is perfectly rational is not saying they have no emotions. Nor is it an insinuation that someone is somehow less human for prioritizing rationality in decision making. And I say this as an outspoken neurodivergent myself.

And neither is anyone who’s neurodivergent “perfectly rational”. That’s not a helpful stereotype, all on its own, without any characterization of our emotional capacity or supposed prioritization of whatever mode of thought.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#226

Post by rendall »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #182
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

> Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your blood pressure will remain lower). I had a manager who would quietly disagree with things we said, then try to gently steer us toward the an…

People often misuse the Socratic method like that. Socrates asked those questions not to guide the students to a certain answer, but because he himself didn't know where the questions would lead. It really was a dialogue and not a way to get students to some particular preconceived answer.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#227

Post by Uehreka »

majormajor wrote: post #204
Uehreka wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehhh… Sure you won’t convince the person you’re talking too, but it’s often worth it because if you really destroy their argument in a way that’s visible to bystanders, you could quietly convince a lot of them (since they can change their minds quietly without any ego cost).

"Destroy their argument" as a tactic is likely to get you in trouble eventually because few people are always right about being right. The first time one of those bystanders sees you come in hot when you're wrong - or even just when they think you're wrong, since many arguments are fuzzier - you lose a lot of credibility you may never get back.

Depends on the context. On HN, sometimes I’m dead wrong, sometimes I’m spot on. I’d bet that there are people who downvoted me when I was wrong, upvoted me when I was right, and didn’t realize I was the same person. Heck, I’ve probably done that to other people on here too.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#228

Post by themitigating »

falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

"Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong."

Time?

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#229

Post by dang »

frankish wrote: post #201
dang wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that each paragraph of your post agrees more with the OP, until by the end you're basically in full agreement. No?

Does "good enough" satisfy the definition of "Leveler" though? How can we objectively predict that "good enough" would still not cause offense? I personally think not because I do not think "good enough" can be objectively predicted without testing it out on the other person -- "good enough" is subjective. If "trying" is all that matters, then how hard are we supposed to try? I personally struggle with this as I find…

(I'm not sure I understand you fully, because I don't know where the phrase 'good enough' came from in this context.)

In terms of gauging one's impact on others and calibrating one's expression—that's definitely a long, hard road for a lot of us. But just the insight that being right isn't sufficient already gets you a big chunk of the way.

This comes up with HN moderation because people frequently break the site rules and then justify it by saying "but it was a factual statement". I usually point out that there are infinitely many facts, and infinitely many ways to express a fact. These things don't select themselves—people choose them, very much for non-factual reasons, and different choices can have quite different effects.

Human communication is complicated; more than one dimension is involved, and to get it right requires navigating all of those dimensions—not just the "true vs. false" dimension. The latter is important, of course, but the relational dimension is as well. If you (I don't mean you personally!) blast someone with a truth in a way that they're not capable to hear, you actually give them an incentive to reject the truth even harder, and that hurts everybody.

> But what if I have different priorities such as objectivity, truth, and reason?

I believe you that you care about those, but no one cares only about those. If I were you I would cultivate the skill of tracking my other motives as well. That isn't comfortable, but it eventually produces huge benefits in just the area you're asking about. Best of all, it doesn't require you to give up any of your passion for truth and reason. You just widen the frame to include more information. As you become more aware of that "more information" in yourself, you become more aware of others too, and this gives you more skill (and less stress!) in navigating those waters.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#230

Post by pjio »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #182
falcolas wrote: post #111

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

> Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your blood pressure will remain lower). I had a manager who would quietly disagree with things we said, then try to gently steer us toward the an…

The Socratic method used to avoid being faced with the possibility of being wrong about something.
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