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Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

reuters.com

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Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#221

Post by johngladtj »

soco wrote: post #214
roenxi wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably would. I have access to a bunch of good investment opportunities that US citizens don't have, because they are "protected" from accidentally making money. I have a stack of little pamphlets outlining interesting investment deals in Australia all labelled with "don't show this to anyone in the US, if you are a US person this isn't for you and we ask that you don't read it". This isn't crypto, only standard…

I guess if you have a problem with the laws of the country or state you are in, you should take it with your local legislator. They're the only ones able to do something about it. Skirting the legislation because one considers it "stupid" is not gonna bring anybody very far.

I suppose you apply those principles consistently even for things you find morally repugnant?

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#222

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

haakon wrote: post #211
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the blog past Coinbase General Counsel asks for "guidance". The guidance for future "crypto entrepreneurs" is going to come from the outcomes of these enforcement actions. CryptoExpert: "We want guidance. We want regulation." SEC: "Your product/service is a security." CryptoExpert: "No it's not!" Damodoran called cryptocurrency "currency made by the paranoid for the paranoid." [paraphrase] Let's be honest, coopera…

> The "cryptocurrency" concept seems to be based on a mistrust of government-issued currency and a mistrust of government more generally. This is the classic notion of cryptocurrency, but the field has grown and changed a lot. People don't mint NFT collections and dabble in metaverse tokens as a middle-finger to the state. The VC-funded cryptocurrencies of the last cycle are obviously centralized and are far removed…

They do it to make money without having to pay tax. Which is not quite a middle finger to the state, but it's certainly middle-finger-to-the-state adjacent.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#223

Post by bluecalm »

tasuki wrote: post #208
aardvarkr wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling is a pretty easy concept to understand, and it’s been with all of us since we were kids. Person A wagers an amount that a certain outcome will occur. Person B accepts that wager and agreed to the terms of the wager. If every kid on the playground can understand how a bet works I guarantee adults can too.

I can assure you many people gambling on slot machines think they'll come out ahead. Gambling can be extremely addictive and harmful, to the point the addict stops using logical reasoning.

Gambling is easier to understand than investments. That being said I agree there should be more regulation. You should be required to state excatly what expected value and variance is when you offer gambling games. Same with fees. "This slot machine pays off 45% of your bet on average and here is how often you win X, Y, Z" or "organizer of this poker game earns about 90% of deposited money in rake and other fees while the remaining 10% is cashed out by the winners".

It would be a better world if we had regulation forcing such disclosure but it doesn't mean that if we still don't have it for gambling we shouldn't have it for things advertised as investments.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#224

Post by mschuster91 »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #129
iambateman wrote: post #115

Some here have said it’s the SEC who should have a more collaborative spirit. But all of their incentives, job descriptions, and reason to exist are to _enforce laws_ not be chummy with startup executives. The “mean” approach to securities enforcement is what we as a society need…there are far too many scams and people who run them, and those scams seem especially concentrated within the crypto world. After the blitz…

In the blog past Coinbase General Counsel asks for "guidance". The guidance for future "crypto entrepreneurs" is going to come from the outcomes of these enforcement actions. CryptoExpert: "We want guidance. We want regulation." SEC: "Your product/service is a security." CryptoExpert: "No it's not!" Damodoran called cryptocurrency "currency made by the paranoid for the paranoid." [paraphrase] Let's be honest, coopera…

> Damodoran called cryptocurrency "currency made by the paranoid for the paranoid." [paraphrase] Let's be honest, cooperating with the government is not high on the crypto nerd's list of priorities. The "cryptocurrency" concept seems to be based on a mistrust of government-issued currency and a mistrust of government more generally.

Given the history of cryptocurrencies, that was indeed the base - Bitcoin really took off once Silk Road crossed the threshold from "only drug nerds know about this" to "everyone and their dog buys research chemicals on SR". Unfortunately, the best days of Silk Road were something like an Eternal September event, as people then discovered that Bitcoin might also be used for speculation...

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#225

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #210
iambateman wrote: post #115

Some here have said it’s the SEC who should have a more collaborative spirit. But all of their incentives, job descriptions, and reason to exist are to _enforce laws_ not be chummy with startup executives. The “mean” approach to securities enforcement is what we as a society need…there are far too many scams and people who run them, and those scams seem especially concentrated within the crypto world. After the blitz…

I think NFTs are foul. But are you implying that awful collector’s items (no matter how speculative and distasteful) should be regulated as securities? What is the principle there that separates them from physical artworks?

Physical artworks have cultural as well as financial value, as well as intrinsic rarity. There's a unique physical object. At the high end it's likely to be famous and instantly recognisable.

If you buy it you get full property rights. You can hide it, show it, sell images of it, or burn it. It's yours in an absolute sense, and you can do whatever you like with it.

NFTs sell the right to speculate. The works themselves are not rare or unusual, and NFT owners don't own the work itself. They can't sell copy/use rights in the way a stock photo or clipart library does.

All they have is a bet their NFT can be sold to someone else at a profit.

So while real art is often used for tax dodges, money laundering, and speculation, the artworks are not usually created for those ends. Nor are other collectibles.

NFTs are created solely for speculation. They have no other purpose. The art itself is a thin and not very convincing cover story.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#226

Post by soco »

johngladtj wrote: post #221
soco wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess if you have a problem with the laws of the country or state you are in, you should take it with your local legislator. They're the only ones able to do something about it. Skirting the legislation because one considers it "stupid" is not gonna bring anybody very far.

I suppose you apply those principles consistently even for things you find morally repugnant?

I cannot find off the top of my head those morally repugnant laws you might be talking about. And as we were mentioning, financial regulation and investors protection for one are definitely not morally repugnant - to me.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#227

Post by flappyeagle »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #225
matthewdgreen wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think NFTs are foul. But are you implying that awful collector’s items (no matter how speculative and distasteful) should be regulated as securities? What is the principle there that separates them from physical artworks?

Physical artworks have cultural as well as financial value, as well as intrinsic rarity. There's a unique physical object. At the high end it's likely to be famous and instantly recognisable. If you buy it you get full property rights. You can hide it, show it, sell images of it, or burn it. It's yours in an absolute sense, and you can do whatever you like with it. NFTs sell the right to speculate. The works themselv…

These days most fine art is purchased, if not created solely for speculation. Most art by artists famous and obscure sits in dedicated climate controlled warehouses never to be seen by human eyes. It's traded and re-traded without physically moving. They could have been set on fire and no one would know the difference. NFTs are one of the actual reasonable uses of crytpo because it maps so closely to how the art market actually works.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#228

Post by polygamous_bat »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #206
kypro wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because you made profits in the earlier years with little to no regulation doesn't mean that government is bound to let you keep making that profit forever. Coinbase has repeatedly asked for clear regulation. If anything your issue should be with the regulators for not regulating, not Coinbase for trying to operate a business responsibly as possible without clear regulation. > Deal with it like a grown busines…

>If anything your issue should be with the regulators for not regulating, not Coinbase for trying to operate a business responsibly as possible without clear regulation. No, no, no, no. That clear regulation exists, today. It's just Coinbase choosing to not comply with it and saying "it can't apply to us, we're different", then asking for special rules that make it easier for them. Coinbase is the one choosing the op…

> It's just Coinbase choosing to not comply with it and saying "it can't apply to us, we're different", then asking for special rules that make it easier for them.

More than that, the conversation I assume is something like the following:

Coinbase: your security laws don't apply to us! We are different! SEC: You really think so? See you in court. Coinbase: Why won't SEC work with us to clarify their rules!

Like, I've seen a lot of cases of fake cryptobro tears but this might be near the top. If you think you're exempt from the law, be ready to defend your position in the court. Don't ask others to do your job of due diligence for you.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#229

Post by hef19898 »

soco wrote: post #213
ALittleLight wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We as a society need laws and regulations that can't be clearly articulated or explained by the agencies explicitly tasked with doing that?

SEC (or other agencies) are definitely not tasked to explain the laws and regulations, they're not offering consulting services either. Coinbase can pay lawyers to explain the laws to them, or get in court (which they will, eventually) to get a judge explain it for good.

The last sentence sounds worse than it is. Because for questions like these, the courts are the ultimate grounds where different interpretations of the law get settled.

Of course, this different interpretation if the law can mean that one side is ik clear violation of existing, and well understood, laws and regulations.

Re: Coinbase issued Wells notice by SEC

#230

Post by hef19898 »

roenxi wrote: post #193
lelanthran wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can take my money and put it into a slot machine, gamble it on horses, gamble it on sports games. I can buy useless thousand dollar sneakers, I can buy pokemon cards. I can waste my money on absurdly overpriced art, give it to scammy non-profits, donate it to scammy spoiler political candidates. > In some states I can use my money to hire hookers, or buy drugs. > But if I want to buy crypto, all of a sudden that…

He probably would. I have access to a bunch of good investment opportunities that US citizens don't have, because they are "protected" from accidentally making money. I have a stack of little pamphlets outlining interesting investment deals in Australia all labelled with "don't show this to anyone in the US, if you are a US person this isn't for you and we ask that you don't read it". This isn't crypto, only standard…

The Swiss =|= Credit Suisse

Also, I know of a bridge that is up for sale. A Nigerian prince told my late uncle who used to work there in the oil and gas sector. But don't tell the Americans, no need to waste such a great investment opportunity.

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