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Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

robkhenderson.substack.com

221–230 of 684 posts

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#221
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm confused. You seem to be suggesting that extra-curricular activites are in fact an accurate indicator, contrary to the SAT proponents? I'm unsure how you arrived at that conclusion. I'll chalk it up to me being unintentionally unclear. What I am saying is that its largely a fallacy that Universities are commonly put to the decision of a more social candidate versus a more academically talented candidate. The mor…

> What I am saying is that its largely a fallacy that Universities are commonly put to the decision of a more social candidate versus a more academically talented candidate. > The more common reality being that the leading academically talented candidates are as or more qualified in their extra-curricular participation. I have no particular objection to this, but doesn't it imply that the SAT requirement is superfluo…

>I have no particular objection to this, but doesn't it imply that the SAT requirement is superfluous, with the combination of grades and extra-curriculars adequately measuring what the colleges want to measure? No. You are making an unfounded judgement call that grades and extra-curriculars adequately measure what the colleges want to measure, in total.

>I don't feel that's an answer. It's just a couple of words that sound nice.

It's a developmental clinician's perceptive (myself) that has its root in the long standing educational and clinical view that curriculums should be tailored to meet student ability. The most obvious every-day example being in the special education classroom (which enjoys the protection of hefty federal law), and which is also mirrored in the less obvious gifted programs.

>I was in a gifted program in junior high school, by the way. In retrospect, it's not clear to me what purpose it served, other than to separate us socially from other students. Maybe it wasn't a very good gifted program, but I did live in a fairly well-off school district, so I don't think that was from lack of funding. In high school we had Advanced Placements courses, which are obviously more practically useful, though I wouldn't place them under the category of "educational justice".

You can't see the purpose of a child with a 150 IQ having a unique curriculum apart from other students? That may or may not be you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't someone. Controlling for any lack in your specific gifted program.

Unless highly organized and driven, the average admissions non-advantaged (no affirmative action, etc) successful Ivy candidate is likely 140 IQ+. With 150 not being uncommon.

There is an ethical parallel to providing these individuals with a unique curriculum and providing one to special education students.

>That's the issue. It sounds nice, reminiscent of the Rawlsian difference principle, but empirically I'm not seeing it in the world. What I see is largely self-enrichment of the minority, without much regard for everyone else.

That's because you lack context on the history of living standards and poverty.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#222
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone must be equitable, then the most expedient way to achieve that is to reduce the standard.

Of course, there will always be a way for well off people to buy their way into higher standard systems. We need a word for this. “Separate but equitable”?

Perhaps we can ask the Soviets what they called it.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#223
post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

>> They have “polish.”

> Standardized test scores are the hardest metric to game, and hence, are most under attack. All this talk about equity is the most convenient and cost-effective way to eliminate the one barrier that most vexes rich parents.

It's also a good way to sneak in affirmative action (racial discrimination really) in places where voters and taxpayers repeatedly said no, like in the UC system, since it removes an objective measure and leaves more "holistic" criterions an admission committee can use to accept or deny (without giving out any explanation) a candidate. [0]

[0] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-harberson-asian-...

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#224
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are so qualified, why not let them compete on the even ground with the rest of the applicants? Why is there a need to special track them via legacy? Legacy should have been abolished long time ago. It’s the epitome of systematic racism.

You seem to have missed the point of my prior post, and you misunderstand how legacy admissions work. Dropping the rhetorical nuke of "systemic racism" doesn't cover for that. Read my prior post again. Legacy gets one looked at. Its not an automatic admission. Unlesss you are simply stating that legacy admissions should be disqualified (this would be ridiculous), then also consider that: you may be making the "resear…

Legacy boosts admission rating. That’s all needed to be said.

It's systematic racism because legacy admission has been part of the official admission system for the longest time. It's a system to favor the incumbents, the riches, the powerful, and the non-minority.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#226
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a mistake, that’s for sure. I’ll be more blunt since a lot of other comments in this thread beat around the bush: higher education institutes are removing objective admissions criteria so that they can admit less qualified minorities on subjective grounds.

the question is, why? why are they doing it? the real reason not the ostensible one.

> question is, why?

Discretionary admissions with social goals turns the university, and its administrators, into institutions with broad public remit.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#227
post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

If you ban legacy, then you lose needed donations. If you lose donations, then costs go up for everyone else. There is a net benefit for everyone when there are academically challenged wealthy children. Just keep standardized testing to prevent mass arbitrary admissions that will inevitably become racist. https://priceonomics.com/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-agai... It’s happened in the past to Jewish people and it…

> If you lose donations, then costs go up for everyone else.

Aren't costs going up for everyone else anyway? Hot take: instead of hoping that rich alumni would donate to universities, the nation could tax these folks properly instead, and use that money make public education free/cheap.

There are quite a few countries in the world doing this, not all of them rich.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your family has $10MM in the bank, you too can take (and report) to IRS zero income.

In the US parents' income is already considered when applying for financial aid. Just add that info to admissions

Does this mean you can not work for a couple of years to make it easy to get in, plus get a discount on the fee?

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#229
post #3

In principle, SAT scores enable people like me, who were very very good at such tests, to break into elite schools. In fact, test prep works well enough to enable a shockingly high percentage of legacies and donor brats in elite schools. Ending SAT use in admissions might enable a more balanced approach to admissions, but it does not broaden access to elite schools. They could increase class sizes, or they could get…

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Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#230
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are so qualified, why not let them compete on the even ground with the rest of the applicants? Why is there a need to special track them via legacy? Legacy should have been abolished long time ago. It’s the epitome of systematic racism.

> If they are so qualified, why not let them compete on the even ground There's not enough room for all the qualified applicants. Choosing based on family is less fair than a lottery but it's not like a lottery is very good either.

A legacy with a B grade candidate will get in. It’s a boost, not a tie breaker.
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