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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#221

Post by diebeforei485 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #50

Meanwhile, the only actual L3 capable car is a Mercedes. Plenty of people will argue that AP is actually superior, but I don't think there's any way to say that for sure, given the tight constraints Mercedes has put on their driver assistance in order to lower the liability enough to make L3 not a bankruptcy event. For certain, however, they are more confident in their technology than Tesla is, otherwise Tesla would…

This is a PR stunt from Mercedes, because in practice their L3 system is not usually available.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#222

Post by panick21_ »

rvnx wrote: post #80
apnew wrote: post #64

> The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,” according to the notice on the website of the National…

There are many of such tests in the open. There is even a former Tesla AI engineer that throws objects in front of the car on YouTube, as a demonstration. The results are not glorious at all :| (trying to find the channel back if someone knows). And random public tests too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mnG_Gbxf_w This is a basic safety auto-braking. Just feels very wrong to even accept it goes into release.

This is not a former Tesla engineer. This is competitor who wants to discredit Tesla and sell its own solution.

The guy behind this is known to be untrustworthy, and many of the videos don't actually do what he claims. Notably he refused to release the videos that would prove his claims right.

The reality is that Tesla scores high on all the automated breaking test done by government. The driver however can override this, and that is exactly what is being done in this video.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#223

Post by ajross »

tjohns wrote: post #133
ajross wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence for "clearly more dangerous"? Because what numbers exist say the opposite. They are now pushing a million (!) of these vehicles on US roads and to my knowledge the bay bridge accident[1] is the only example of a significant at fault accident involving the technology. It's very easy to make pronouncements like "one accident is too many", but we all know that's not correct in context. Right? If FSD…

Just off the top of my head: - A Tesla near that drive into the median divider near Sunnyvale on Highway 101, because it thought the gore point was an extra lane. Split the car in half and killed the driver. [1] - A Tesla that autonomously ran a red light and killed two people. [2] - Multiple accidents where Teslas have driven into parked emergency vehicles / semi trucks. Is it quantitatively safer than human drivers…

Those are autopilot accidents from before FSD beta was even released.

I mean, it's true, that if you broaden the search to "any accident involving Tesla-produced automation technology" you're going to find more signal, but your denominator also shrinks by one (maybe two) orders of magnitude.

And it also lets me cite Tesla's own statistics for its autopilot product (again, not FSD beta): https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

These show pretty unequivocally that AP is safer than human drivers, and by a pretty significant margin. So as to:

> Is it quantitatively safer than human drivers? I don't have that data to say one way or the other.

Now you do. So you'll agree with me? I suspect not, and that we'll end up in a long discussion about criticism of that safety report instead [edit: and right on queue...]. That's the way these discussions always go. No one wants to give ground, so they keep citing the same tiny handful of accident data while the cars keep coming off the production line.

It's safe. It is not perfect, but it is safe. It just is. You know it's safe. You do.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#224

Post by duncan-donuts »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #190
buildbot wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It involves a safety system! That needs to be tracked publicly and updated! Nothing more than an OTA - does not mean much when everything is fly by wire and a bug could mean your car does not stop accelerating or something.

Recall implies something being returned. This should be called a mandatory software patch, or something like that. The problem is Tesla owners repeatedly see "recall" to mean "software update", so this might lead to a lot of confusion if a physical recall is actually required in the future.

Surely a hardware recall would specifically tell you to go to a dealer, right? I’m not sure it’s really confusing. The specific thing here is that these are mandatory things that are tracked by vehicle.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#226

Post by indigodaddy »

xdavidliu wrote: post #202
belter wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can kill people the other not. Guess which one. >> "...The FSD Beta system may cause crashes by allowing the affected vehicles to: “Act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution,…

> One can kill people the other not. No, that's not correct. Whether it can kill people or not is orthogonal to whether it's a true physical recall of the car or a software update.

I think that it’s more about using the most appropriate known terminology in order to try to get the most people to do the needful. “recall” sounds more urgent/dire than “software update”, and will likely encourage many more people to take action vs using “software update” or some less familiar terminology. The word “recall” in terms of autos has built up a lot of history/prior art in people’s minds as something to really pay attention to. I have no idea, but perhaps that is why they are going with this known terminology.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#227

Post by make_it_sure »

mrb wrote: post #126
adoxyz wrote: post #44

I still can't believe FSD Beta was allowed on public roads. I've had it since day 1, and oh my god. It behaves worse than a drunk teenager. All the updates since, have made it barely better. This needs to be pulled entirely and rethought.

I have FSD too, and my opinion is that although it takes unsafe actions almost on a daily basis, most of these errors are minor, easily rectified by me the driver, and most of the time it drives just fine, in fact better than a human driver. I witnessed FSD avoiding me a collision by responding faster than I could have by auto-braking when another driver ran a red light. FSD doesn't need to be perfect to avoid accide…

well, today is cool to hate on any technologies related to musk. Even if you had a good experience, people don't want to believe you.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#228

Post by Kiro »

idlewords wrote: post #141

I love that this is the same guy who wants to send people to Mars one-way and then figure out the return trip later.

Why do you hate the idea of going to Mars so much?

https://idlewords.com/2023/1/why_not_mars.htm

I would love to go there, even if it meant I died the second I step foot on it. Getting back would be the last thing on my mind.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#229

Post by reilly3000 »

sentientslug wrote: post #218
diebeforei485 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recall implies something being returned. This should be called a mandatory software patch, or something like that. The problem is Tesla owners repeatedly see "recall" to mean "software update", so this might lead to a lot of confusion if a physical recall is actually required in the future.

This is most likely a legislative issue with NHTSA, I don't think they have a mechanism by which they can enforce a software update since the concept didn't exist when recalls were first implemented.

This is the correct answer. The question is, how do we get better at regulating reality faster?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#230

Post by HideousKojima »

Reki wrote: post #197
facorreia wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but to be eligible for the return trip you'd first need to pay the loan you took to go there by working as an indentured servant and buying your oxygen and food at company-set prices, right?

What, you think people should be able to breathe for free?

Life imitates art, you ever seen Total Recall?
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