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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#221

Post by inglor_cz »

notch898a wrote: post #219
inglor_cz wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"bunch of homeless Turks/Kurds dying on the streets" Is that common in Turkey? It rather sounds like an American extrapolating from the situation on the Tenderloin. In the Muslim world, extended families tend to stick together more than in the West and provide their members with some safety net. Your crazy uncle will have just a cot in a small side room, but won't be left alone in the street to fend for himself.

I am extrapolating from living in Rojava, which is as close as I can get to Turkey without getting executed.

Is non-war-related homelessness common in Rojava?

As far as my knowledge of the Muslim world goes, families seem to stick together way more than in Europe and won't simply let one of their own in the street.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#222

Post by itronitron »

adrianparsons wrote: post #146
flavius29663 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

> can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? There's a small movement to eradicate the requirement for midrise buildings to have 2 stairways. Advocates point to European regulations and claim that a single stairway is just as safe as 2. Double stairways, they say, makes construction more expensive and results in awkward, undesirable apartment layouts. https://slate.com/business/2021/12/staircases-flo…

US apartment buildings are much more likely to involve wood frame construction than EU apartment buildings.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#223

Post by mcguire »

pkulak wrote: post #203
treis wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, there's an outlet on every corner of the island about 2.5 feet from the sink. And on the other kitchen sink there's one immediately on each side. Nobody is getting fucked.

I'm more commenting on: > Spooked me enough to make me not get permits for the next renos. I have no idea what you're going to decide is up to your own personal code going forward.

This is the fun part about buying a house in a rural area with no real regulation enforcement. Part of the house is 70 years old. Another part is an addition built by a previous owner. Every maintenance item is a journey of adventure and discovery.

There's no less than three breaker panels in the house itself and it's never immediately clear which panel goes to which outlet/fixture/appliance.

I gave up installing a faucet in the kitchen and called a plumber. He cut the PVC monstrosity out from the cabinet and took it back to the shop to show his buddies.

You know that little drain line that comes from the AC to handle condensation? It is not a good idea to have the other end of it in the crawl space.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#224

Post by mikeyouse »

treis wrote: post #184
flavius29663 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that a bad safety measure? if not close enough, people will use extension cords, which will be significantly more dangerous than proper outlets.

There's an outlet 2.5 feet away. No need for an extension cord.

Okay, what if it was 3 feet away? What about 3.5 feet away? At which point do they stop being overzealous?

From a top-level comment: Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception.

You built something that wasn't to code and now you're sad that they told you that you did it wrong, but allowed it to stand because in their judgement it wasn't critical enough to have you rework it? The IRC is freely available, just read the code and follow it! It's dead simple. They even have pictures: https://cdn-codes-pdf.iccsafe.org/bundles/document/new_docum...

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#225

Post by mcguire »

treis wrote: post #183
Teever wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your thought process in this situation at all. Things worked out for you when you followed the rules, and because they worked out, you're not going to follow the rules in the future?

I lucked out that the first inspector was lazy and/or incompetent. He was there for 5 minutes and spent 4 of them chatting about his kid's baseball game. If I had the second inspector first he would have made me rework the design.

By "rework the design" you mean move one outlet six inches closer to the sink?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#226

Post by notch898a »

inglor_cz wrote: post #221
notch898a wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am extrapolating from living in Rojava, which is as close as I can get to Turkey without getting executed.

Is non-war-related homelessness common in Rojava? As far as my knowledge of the Muslim world goes, families seem to stick together way more than in Europe and won't simply let one of their own in the street.

I don't think the war can reliably be separated from the issue anywhere in the Turkey/Syria/Iraq region, but I saw some desperate housing on the outskirts of Qamishlo. I don't see how requiring sturdy housing would make the situation any better, as many families simply cannot afford it.

Also the Kurds, who are a big portion of inhabitants in South Turkey, tend to be less religious in general than residents of many of the ME countries. Plenty of non-muslims, orphans, etc.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#227

Post by inglor_cz »

notch898a wrote: post #226
inglor_cz wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is non-war-related homelessness common in Rojava? As far as my knowledge of the Muslim world goes, families seem to stick together way more than in Europe and won't simply let one of their own in the street.

I don't think the war can reliably be separated from the issue anywhere in the Turkey/Syria/Iraq region, but I saw some desperate housing on the outskirts of Qamishlo. I don't see how requiring sturdy housing would make the situation any better, as many families simply cannot afford it. Also the Kurds, who are a big portion of inhabitants in South Turkey, tend to be less religious in general than residents of many of…

"tend to be less religious"

That is what I have heard too, but family/society patterns tend to linger for a generation or two after the religiosity has subsided.

Czechia, where I live, has only about 13 per cent of self-declared Christians, but the main Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas are still almost universally observed. The trace is still strong, even though the religious core has mostly evaporated.

"I don't see how requiring sturdy housing would make the situation any better, as many families simply cannot afford it."

I am not certain that the bad housing was actually much cheaper when sold than it would be if the codes were at least somewhat respected. People who do this kind of shady stuff will still try to sell at the highest possible market prices.

This is a notorious problem in China: very expensive apartments of horrible quality. Once a few crooks coordinate with the corrupt officials to capture the local market, you don't have much choice but to accept their conditions or go pound sand.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#228

Post by mcguire »

mhb wrote: post #209
reaperducer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the code is always overzealous It's only overzealous to people trying to cut corners. It's never overzealous to the people who are killed or hurt.

There are people who are killed or hurt by overzealous code who you don't know about.

Can you name some?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#229

Post by rhn_mk1 »

terminalcommand wrote: post #205
mabbo wrote: post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

In Turkey, these buildings were constructed by building companies close to government. They paid their bribes and constructed the buildings with making every shortcut. What was Turkey's response? The governor of Hatay ordered to demolish the building construction control authority's archive (archive with signed and stamped construction projects, floor studies etc.), with the documents in it (i.e. to bury all evidence…

Could you link to any sources? This sounds big.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#230

Post by [deleted] »

biggieshellz wrote: post #17
conanbatt wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It cuts both ways. What about the homeless person dying in the cold because he can't afford shelter due to sky high building requirements - is that included in the building code enforcement rules?

That's more due to exclusionary zoning than building codes. There is no reason why we couldn't build, for instance, a boarding house under modern building codes, which would create more affordable housing on the low end. The reason that doesn't get built is that the zoning doesn't allow it.

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