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Why is remote work seen as a gift?

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Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#221

Post by jokethrowaway »

I think the problem with remote is that jobs are not terribly meritocratic. You don't get rewarded handsomely if you work hard and you don't get sacked if you slack.

Try to do that as a business and you'll quickly go out of business.

The inefficiency which is intrinsic in large hierarchical companies means you have to pay employees by hours worked, not by projects being delivered.

So you just assume some level of inefficiency and pay roughly accordingly to the output you can get. You can try to improve things a bit with some blabbing, some politics, writing a "mission", some perks, some beers - but you'll work within certain limits.

Peers or managers will keep themselves accountable for staying at least ~6-8 hours in the workplace - and, no matter how much they slack, it will be hard to get zero work done.

If people are at home, there will be a few individuals overworking but most people will just spend less time in work-mode. Measuring productivity is an errand's fool so any proof in this direction is as good as random data in my eyes.

Personally, I've seen productivity decline with remote and looking at my friends' instagram, I can see them working less (when they don't have a side hustle).

That said, I'm all for remote. It's just another perk to get better people: they get their life back, they'll work a bit less but at least you can get the best people.

Before COVID, I was already working in a remote only team and the quality of the people was astounding. Things were getting done even if people were spending half a day skiing, simply because a couple of hours of someone who is GOOD can help way more than 8 hours of mediocre people (which is often harmful).

After COVID, working with remote people has been crap, for the chronicles.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#222

Post by eru »

RHSeeger wrote: post #164
MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

> It should be about the value I bring to the company, not where I live. It's a balancing act. If companies pay based on value added to the company, they will wind up paying more than average in low COL areas, and less than average in high COL areas; so they won't be able to hire people in high COL areas at all. If they scale pay based on COL, they'll be able to hire people in both areas. So yes, it's not "fair" to p…

> [...] so they won't be able to hire people in high COL areas at all.

You say it like it's a bad thing. If they can hire people for relatively cheap purely from low COL areas, and make the company work, they should totally go for that. That's the whole reason behind having offices in even cheaper areas like Vietnam, instead of just the American Midwest.

Of course, if you can't actually run your business purely on people from low COL areas, that means there must be something the people from the high COL areas bring to the table that's worth it for your business. And that's proves the original commenter's point that the company should pay you according what value you bring to the company.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#223

Post by Avicebron »

ericmay wrote: post #220
franciscop wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is true, the best you can do is vote with your feet. I have had the situation where I was offered "locally competitive salaries" (not in the USA though), and every time I've rejected it I had a 50%-100% better offer within few weeks . There ARE companies that will pay better and independently of your location, you do need to be good though (as in companies are proactively seeking you out) and keep searching.…

I’m really surprised that nobody has set up address as a service yet so that you can claim for example to live in New York by virtue of an address auto command “a New York salary”.

I'm not a lawyer, but this seems illegal on its face. Just from a tax perspective for the government, I feel like people would immediately start trying to game it for taxes.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#224

Post by ejb999 »

ericmay wrote: post #220
franciscop wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is true, the best you can do is vote with your feet. I have had the situation where I was offered "locally competitive salaries" (not in the USA though), and every time I've rejected it I had a 50%-100% better offer within few weeks . There ARE companies that will pay better and independently of your location, you do need to be good though (as in companies are proactively seeking you out) and keep searching.…

I’m really surprised that nobody has set up address as a service yet so that you can claim for example to live in New York by virtue of an address auto command “a New York salary”.

great - and then you have to pay NYC taxes. Probably something you want to avoid, unless you actually live there.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#225

Post by eru »

roenxi wrote: post #133
MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

This is underselling the value of economic clustering. Even if everyone works from home, there are advantages to drawing from local talent pools (people know people and can vouch for their work, cultural norms make it easier to work together, there are less labour law difficulties, there is less geopolitical risk of parts of your team being sanctioned because you hired Chinese or Russian programmers, etc, etc). All e…

I mostly agree.

> All else being equal, the only reason to hire a distant programmer is to pay them less.

Yes. To give some example where not everything else is equal:

There can be benefits from covering more timezones, or benefits from covering different jurisdictions (and tax regimes).

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#226

Post by autoexec »

brmgb wrote: post #50
MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

> I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued, that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that can truthfully deduct the cost-for-living from the compensation they are offering. It should be about the v…

> Refusing to pay you more is their way of telling you they don't believe you can get something better than what they offer where you are which is legitimate.

Except when they collude to drive down wages or pay for laws to make it harder for workers to organize keeping them weak. Also "where you are" has been made irrelevant for many workers because they can get employment anywhere without going anywhere. That means what's really being said is that they don't believe you can get something better than what they offer anywhere.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#227

Post by eru »

m000 wrote: post #135
givemeethekeys wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies out there stating that remote is "complicated" It's complicated because a large number of managers haven't figured out how to manage a remote team.

I think it is complicated because a large number of management jobs are "bullshit" (see [1]). I.e. they could be eliminated, and productivity would not be affected, or it could even be improved. Remote work does an exposé on the usefulness of these roles. And of course, those holding them, would be eager for everyone to return to the office work theater. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

If bullshit jobs are so common, does that mean capitalism isn't actually all that ruthless? Why are companies putting up with them?

(I know that in eg France is basically impossible to fire people, so I can see why they might have lots of bullshit jobs.)

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#228

Post by jsty »

ericmay wrote: post #220
franciscop wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is true, the best you can do is vote with your feet. I have had the situation where I was offered "locally competitive salaries" (not in the USA though), and every time I've rejected it I had a 50%-100% better offer within few weeks . There ARE companies that will pay better and independently of your location, you do need to be good though (as in companies are proactively seeking you out) and keep searching.…

I’m really surprised that nobody has set up address as a service yet so that you can claim for example to live in New York by virtue of an address auto command “a New York salary”.

There’s plenty of virtual office / forwarding address services, but claiming you live at one when you don’t for a pay gain risks (1) fraud against your employer; and (2) tax fraud (if eg in a different city / state / country).

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#229

Post by CalRobert »

Avicebron wrote: post #223
ericmay wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m really surprised that nobody has set up address as a service yet so that you can claim for example to live in New York by virtue of an address auto command “a New York salary”.

I'm not a lawyer, but this seems illegal on its face. Just from a tax perspective for the government, I feel like people would immediately start trying to game it for taxes.

I don't know if it matters but I have a limited company and am an employee of said company, which means I deal with taxes on my own and can perform work for (almost) any company in the world - I just invoice them like any supplier. Maybe this is the future? Though some companies would rather you were their employee I suppose.

Re: Why is remote work seen as a gift?

#230

Post by eru »

blitzar wrote: post #134
MrGilbert wrote: post #25

I find it kind of amusing (and annoying) that employers like to play the salaray game as it fits their needs. I got interviewed a few times, and some stated that they cannot pay the salary I was asking, because i don't live in a high-density, high-cost-for-living area, while others argued that they have to respect their local salaries, which are below what I would expect in my area. I'm yet to meet the employer that…

> It should be about the value I bring to the company, not where I live. Tell that to the kid getting paid 14 cents an hour on the other side of the planet to make your $1,500 iPhone.

I'm not sure what your point is?

Making remote work and pay for productivity more common and accepted, would help that kid. That's good!

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