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Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

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Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are the lights expensive?

I don't think the other answers are getting at the meat of it. Consider that those red lights functioning is the only thing keeping hundreds or thousands of people from getting killed. What sorts of safety and durability requirements would you impose on them? What sorts of maintenance and training requirements? If nothing else they need to hold up in every weather and temperature big airports exist (-80ºF to +150ºF)…

The other major concern is running reliable power to the lights. That isn’t something that can happen above ground when crossing runways, so there’s going to be at least some digging up the runway and repaving. Repaving runways isn’t cheap. It has to be done in an expedited manner since airports need all runways available during peak hours, so there’s usually a six-ish hour overnight window for work to get done and the runway left usable for the next day. This isn’t like normal roadwork where temporary metal plates can cover over unfinished work, so work must be done and the asphalt set during that window. This can mean large work crews doing highly-choreographed work that they’ve prepared (and even practiced) long in advance.

The costs add up quickly.

Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem logical if the alternative is not having the lights at all.

> That doesn't seem logical if the alternative is not having the lights at all. If the norm becomes (radio clearance and no red lights), I suspect pilots will become conditioned to equate no-red-lights with landing clearance. Not 100%, but maybe at least 1% of the time. So if that happens and the red lights stopped working, you have a problem that wouldn't have existed if the red lights were never introduced. Perhaps…

Exactly. The lights create a kind of moral hazard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the other answers are getting at the meat of it. Consider that those red lights functioning is the only thing keeping hundreds or thousands of people from getting killed. What sorts of safety and durability requirements would you impose on them? What sorts of maintenance and training requirements? If nothing else they need to hold up in every weather and temperature big airports exist (-80ºF to +150ºF)…

The other major concern is running reliable power to the lights. That isn’t something that can happen above ground when crossing runways, so there’s going to be at least some digging up the runway and repaving. Repaving runways isn’t cheap. It has to be done in an expedited manner since airports need all runways available during peak hours, so there’s usually a six-ish hour overnight window for work to get done and t…

> so there’s going to be at least some digging up the runway and repaving.

The US doesn't have horizontal directional drilling rigs that go under a runway and pull cable?

Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#224

For those thinking about preventative solutions, there are some existing, all very expensive of course. The simplest is placing a row of red lights in the ground at all intersections to runways. When an airplane is cleared for takeoff and until it is airborne the controller presses a button and turns all these lights red. Pilots are instructed that regardless of clearance, a red light over-rides that, and to never cr…

This diagram suggest that it is installed at the intersection in question (J cross 4L)

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/media/JFK.pd...

Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#225

The article mentions runway 4L was being used for takeoffs. In the ATC communications, you can hear them say "American 185, runway 31L at KE, line up and wait" before telling Delta 1943 to cancel their takeoff clearance. And after the near collision, ATC tells American 106 Heavy "we're departing runway 4L." Wouldn't the line up and wait call for American 185 mean that they were departing from both 4L and 31L?

Departing 4L mean that there are no 31L full length take-off (except very very heavy aircraft). 31L at KE does not conflict with 4L, nor does it require crossing 4L.

Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've experienced maximum breaking in an emergency landing. Many passengers (including me) instinctively put their hands on the seat in front to steady themselves. You could easily slide around if the seat belt were loose. It was it worst for children whose legs didn't reach the floor, but there were none seated near me.

Rejected takeoffs and clear air turbulence are why I never do infant-in-arms.

What is the alternative? Is there an equivalent of a infant car seat for the plane?

Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#227
Maybe 25 years ago, I'm not sure, there was some collision at an airport and the investigators were all wondering what happened, and were trying to reconstruct which airplane was where. It turns out that there were no video cameras monitoring the taxiways and runways. I asked why not?

"Too expensive"

WAAT? Even a 7-11 had an always on camera.

"Too expensive. How would you get it to withstand the weather? How would you run power to it?"

Me: install it in the control tower, point it at the taxiways, and plug it in.

"That will never work"

Me: Sigh.

I still don't know if they have cameras monitoring the ground ops.

Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#228

Maybe 25 years ago, I'm not sure, there was some collision at an airport and the investigators were all wondering what happened, and were trying to reconstruct which airplane was where. It turns out that there were no video cameras monitoring the taxiways and runways. I asked why not? "Too expensive" WAAT? Even a 7-11 had an always on camera. "Too expensive. How would you get it to withstand the weather? How would yo…

These days you could point a handful of cameras at the taxiways, hook it to a computer, and have a realtime display of everything on the taxiways and runways. Then, the computer could detect potential collisions and alert.

Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People die at intersections with stop signs every day, but we don’t do it on our roads for the exact same reason.

McKinsey style interview question. How many road intersections are there in the US?

"our market analysis shows that price inelasticity and customer retention rate of opioids are insane! "

Re: Friday night’s near-disaster at JFK airport

#230
post #82
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each human life is worth approximately $10 million [1], so you're in the right ballpark. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life

$10 million is not what is stated at your link. "In Western countries and other liberal democracies, estimates for the value of a statistical life typically range from US$1 million—US$10 million; for example, the United States FEMA estimated the value of a statistical life at US$7.5 million in 2020." [1] That's also not the meaning of Value of Life, which is a statistical evaluation. On a commercial plane there are a…

The VSL used in this case is $11.8 million in 2021, the most recent year it’s been adjusted for [0]. $10m is the usual rule-of-thumb. When making policies, governments generally pick a single value. Those “micro” VSL choices are one way governments can arrive at that value [1], but it’s certainly not the only way — economists have developed a bunch of different models which have (in some cases) wildly divergent outcomes [2].

But the key takeaway is that, for government policy purposes in the US, all lives are treated as having the same value and that value is about $10 million.

[0]: https://www.transportation.gov/office-policy/transportation-...

[1]: How this VSL was calculated: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/policy_guidance/ben...

[2]: General VSL calculation methods: https://law.vanderbilt.edu/phd/faculty/w-kip-viscusi/368_Val...

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