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New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

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Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the.... ? > humanity probably can’t handle this responsibility. Again, evidence please. Assisted Dying stuff seems to be actually useful for people in very bad situations, where death is "actually better" (for various measures :p). That other people are not working with it in good faith isn't (by itself) an indication of humanity not being able to handle the responsibility. At least, it doesn't seem that way so…

This is analogous to the argument for guns in every classroom. Sure it can help in some cases, but is it worth the risk when we know it will be abused?

> when we know it will be abused?

Again, wtf?

Why on earth should we "know it will be abused"?

You're acting like you're in "the right", when it doesn't seem to be the case at all.

"Guns" have significant evidence showing abuse. The only example I've (personally) seen of abuse of assisted dying, is this Canada thing.

There are other places with assisted dying laws, and they don't seem to be having the same problem. Maybe they indeed did have a period of crappiness like this (but fixed it), maybe they didn't have it go bad, (etc).

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is analogous to the argument for guns in every classroom. Sure it can help in some cases, but is it worth the risk when we know it will be abused?

> when we know it will be abused? Again, wtf? Why on earth should we "know it will be abused"? You're acting like you're in "the right", when it doesn't seem to be the case at all. "Guns" have significant evidence showing abuse. The only example I've (personally) seen of abuse of assisted dying, is this Canada thing. There are other places with assisted dying laws, and they don't seem to be having the same problem. M…

You can make such predictions if you know enough about human behavior and are a student of history. The idea that the sick and infirmed should do us all a favor and kill themselves is a historical default. From Aboriginals leaving elders behind to fend for themselves, to the Ättestupa for the Vikings. More recent examples include the Nazis who started with ‘merciful deaths’ for ‘life unworthy of life’ in a program called Project T4. They started with the totally brain dead and slippery sloped the rest. Ended up with the incurably ill, physically or mentally disabled, emotionally distraught, and elderly people Initially people had to petition the authorities letters and give their reasons for recommending their family member be euthanized. Letters you can still read and the arguments in them sound exactly the same as they do today. Hitting on the major themes of ‘who’d want to live like that’, ‘it’s for their own good’, and the more honest ‘they’re costing us a bunch of money that we can’t afford’.

Many old people tend to get cranky and are a pain, plus they have expensive medical problems and gambling habits. It’s extremely common for their children to wish them dead before all semblance of an inheritance and possibly their last hope at a middle class life is gone. Many people will be left with the choice of watching their middle class life disappear or successfully convincing their parents into assisted suicide. Some people even take matters into their own hands. Killing people for your own benefit is murder but if you convince them to suicide ether by persuasion or making their life unlivable then now it’s legal. A lot more people will take that option. You might think people are nicer than that but you’d be wrong. I used to have access to search logs and the percentage of people looking to covertly drown their disabled child is crazy pervasive. And we know how many went threw with it as they later search for funeral arrangements. No one wants to do anything about it because it is seen as an effective solution to a hard problem.

The real issue is that we’re on the cusp of major medical breakthroughs that will vastly improve the lives of many chronically ill people. But instead of spending on research though it’s considered easier to convince people to kill themselves via gaslighting. The fact that disabled people are expensive is the major impetus for researching treatments. Give medical insurers and governments an option to gaslight people into a cheaper ‘treatment’ and they will take it instead and the little money spent on on such research with dry up. Seriously research the history of chronic fatigue.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure, and I'm assuming the parents were great in every other respect. Assuming the best — that they didn't understand the harm of secondhand smoke — wouldn't a ban have been helpful to them in the same way that a ban on lead paint is helpful?

Sounds like Prohibition but for cigarettes. We know how that went. We also know what banning marijuana hasn't worked out too well. At the start of Covid pandemic South Africa banned the sales of cigarettes for about three months. Result was lots of unscrupulous people became rich [0][1]. [0] https://businesstech.co.za/news/trending/468724/governments-... [1] https://www.africanews.com/2022/06/17/cigarette-smuggling-t…

Isn't there a big difference between what Australia is doing and those prohibitions? I think one of the main reasons those went so terribly is that people were already used and/or addicted to drinking/smoking, so of course they continued doing those things illegally. But this policy tries to make sure that people never start smoking, by making it not legally available to every who is now young enough to most likely not have started already. Those who smoke currently can (with this policy) continue doing so legally, so there's less demand for black markets etc.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#224
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like Prohibition but for cigarettes. We know how that went. We also know what banning marijuana hasn't worked out too well. At the start of Covid pandemic South Africa banned the sales of cigarettes for about three months. Result was lots of unscrupulous people became rich [0][1]. [0] https://businesstech.co.za/news/trending/468724/governments-... [1] https://www.africanews.com/2022/06/17/cigarette-smuggling-t…

Isn't there a big difference between what Australia is doing and those prohibitions? I think one of the main reasons those went so terribly is that people were already used and/or addicted to drinking/smoking, so of course they continued doing those things illegally. But this policy tries to make sure that people never start smoking, by making it not legally available to every who is now young enough to most likely n…

I can't fault the theory and can only share an anecdote. It was illegal for school children to smoke when I was in school, 80s into early 90s. So much so that kids caught smoking were expelled from school. Kids still smoked. Perhaps it was a different time and perhaps this time it is being done right.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning cigarettes is protecting public health

[flagged]

Yes, I support a classless society without exploitation, where the humans own the means of production, democratically.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what was the crime they didn't want to go through with?

Palmerston North. Lived in Auckland in 2014 and again in 2020. The difference was massive. Suddenly every convenience store had plastic barriers protecting the workers from stabbing. Places in the CBD that used to be OK to hang out were suddenly not. But we're constantly gas-lighted into being told we're all imagining it, as police presence has all but disappeared (lots of "community officers" though).

What was the specific crime committed though?

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because older people already got addicted while it was legal seems like a pragmatic decision (and... "sets a horrible precedent" for what?)

Would you be against the same law if it was about alcohol? (Ban for people born after 2008)

No of course not, it's not the same
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