I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you • Hacker News Board

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#221

Post by warbler73 » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:22 AM UTC

antiterra wrote: post #37

dihydro wrote: post #2

The writer of the poem, or short story, when you beat the ender dragon in Minecraft, never signed the contract releasing his copyright on it. That means Microsoft doesn't actually own the ending to Minecraft.

Microsoft probably doesn’t own the ending to Minecraft, since my non-lawyer understanding is that assignment must be done a particular way unless it is done in very specific terms as a ‘work for hire.’ However, his acceptance of the money, things written in his emails, the poem itself or other behaviors, could possibly form a case that he implicitly assigned a transferable non-exclusive license to Mojang for it to be…

> he implicitly assigned a transferable non-exclusive license to Mojang

This is almost correct. If this was decided in the US, his discussions and acceptance of payment gave Mojang a non-transferable license. During the sale to Microsoft, he was a stakeholder. Microsoft failed to acquire a license, which was why they were trying to force him to sign a contract with terms - of perpetual transfer - that he did not agree to. Mojang needed that signed otherwise Microsoft needed to negotiate a license or purchase from him directly. Microsoft did not do this so they don't own it nor did they have the right to distribute his work until he public-domained it. They are still guilty of infringements up to the date he public domained it, but he seems to have released he right to pursue this as part of this essay.

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#222

Post by Kiro » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:23 AM UTC

operator-name wrote: post #193

operator-name wrote: post #170

This has also been posted to the Minecraft subreddit, where is has received a lot of positive attention from the community: https://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/zf8ye0/i_wrote_t...

It's quite intersting seeing the difference in focus and tone between HN and the Minecraft subreddit. Although the end poem has received criticism here, it's obvious from the thread that it's touched a lot of people. Being friends and known a small number of "artists", the difference in mindset was extremely apparent - some of them just think and see the world fundimental very differently from the way I do. Many acti…

Not really. If this was the post on HN I'm sure people would be more sympathetic because it leaves out all the important details, like the fact that he actually received €20k for it and the pompous idea that he's one of the creators of Minecraft.

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#223

Post by Gigachad » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:24 AM UTC

nmfisher wrote: post #111

asperous wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he actually received $20,000 that still seems like a lot? Especially in a world where freelance writing is $0.01-$0.50 (pre-GPT3). And it sounds like at the time it was good money for the artist. I get that he feels like he was given a small amount relative to the great success of Minecraft, but I would hope he also realizes that it was risk free cash.

That was my reaction too, 20,000 (euros) seems quite decent for a tiny freelance engagement, and just skimming the contract, that all seems bog-standard, too. If he didn't think the money was fair, he shouldn't have accepted it. I expect Mojang would have simply pulled the plug and gone with someone else if he had done so. This really just smacks of sour grapes that Mojang was sold for squillions and the author feels…

Yeah looking at the contract, it seems exactly like the kind of thing you’d want to have for content in a game. It removes all complexities as you may need to edit or do whatever to it years later.

Imagine if all the developers expected to both be paid to write code and still own the rights to the code.

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#224

Post by wslack » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:24 AM UTC

cmeacham98 wrote: post #213

nigamanth wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Minecraft would have still sold as much if the ending screen said "You won" or much simply "The end". But, he did still put in the effort in creating the poem. Every part of the game matters, and I think it's fair if he gets paid or at-least gets credit for his contributions to the game. I understand the author being hurt as he's one of the 5 people that contributed to the game, he just needed the credit or any…

> I think it's fair if he gets paid or at-least gets credit for his contributions to the game. He did get paid, $20000. How was Mojang supposed to know he wanted more when he accepted that payment?

I don't think he wanted "more," exactly - he felt excluded. It felt like something out of the character of friendship he wanted.

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#225

Post by fastball » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:24 AM UTC

Moru wrote: post #131

colonwqbang wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the whole point that the author thinks he deserves more compensation than he got? He's quoting the compensation for various Mojang employees and comparing it to what he got. He seems quite jelaous and/or entitled. 20000€ would in most European countries be a pretty good compensation for about 3 months of work, after taxes. It doesn't seem unreasonable on the face of it.

It wasn't just 20k, it was also some publicity for his other works which never happened.

Well he never signed the contract so...

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#226

Post by mcv » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:25 AM UTC

spuz wrote: post #186

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #40

I feel for the guy, making a living off of art is difficult. However, with an extensive email chain explaining the story was written as the ending of Minecraft, even going into detail about how it was to be displayed in game, an agreed upon offer (if a bit vague), and then an exchange of funds - with no immediate attempt to return said funds. I'm no lawyer, but that sounds a lot like a legally binding agreement. > So…

My interpretation of the legal status is that the author is entitled to accept the €20k as payment for his time but that amount doesn't constitute payment for the copyright of the work. Mojang subsequently wanted to purchase that copyright and hence why they sent the contract for £1 to be signed. Julian believed the copyright was worth more and so rejected the offer. All that is to say that if my interpretation is co…

> Mojang subsequently wanted to purchase that copyright and hence why they sent the contract for £1 to be signed.

That is the move by Mojang that I didn't understand. They were about to be paid 2.5 billion. Why not offer 1 million for the signed contract? They could easily afford that, and with his financial troubles at the time, Julian would probably have signed it.

And he'd have missed out on his subsequent personal growth, and we wouldn't have gotten this beautiful story, and the universe wouldn't have gotten the End Poem, but Microsoft would, and the world would have been more normal, predictable, corporate. But he would have been able to eat and pay rent.

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#227

Post by vkazanov » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:25 AM UTC

operator-name wrote: post #204

FamosoRandom wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really interesting to compare both general opinion on HN and on this subreddit. On HN, a place probably filled with technical guys, people are generaly putting themselves in dev shoes. They are accusing the author of feeling entitled to more money because he felt like he was part of the team and that he think his work is equaly important as the work of everyone else. Devs being devs generaly know that coding…

It's a bit sad because I think many here are missing the lesson to be learnt - artists want to be treated as artists (with emotion rather than rationality). When you treat them as cold hearted rational contractors, this kind of mess occurs. I'm reminded of a similar event with the Doom soundtrack https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-d...

Knowing some superartistic and talented people, I generally agree.

But Mick's case is very different. Mojang did pay, the guy did write, it's just that the guy wanted more than there was there in the informal agreement.

Mick Gordon did sign, idSoftware did not follow the contract, failed to pay on multiple occasions and did not even try to come back to reason in the longer term. Then there's the whole OST story, which is a different kind of evil. Marty Stratton, the producer of the game, played a very dirty game with Gordon with all of the blame shifting and payment problems and that horrible, horrible original reddit post.

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#228

Post by wikfwikf » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:26 AM UTC

Tossrock wrote: post #180

pgsandstrom wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im honestly chocked that people react so negatively to this piece. Yes, the author expresses many negative and self centered emotions. He is very clear about that. It is part of the story. It is a story about being a flawed person. I sympathize with him. I loved this piece. I hope he truly did let go of all the hangups he described. And it does seem that he actually did sell the the rights of use to microsoft, making…

I think most of them didn't actually read it and instead skimmed a few paragraphs, saw "$20,000", and rushed back to comment.

I read the whole thing. It was somewhat overwritten. Not my favorite ever post-hallucinogen-trip essay.

I agree with other commenters that the author is greedy and petty. He accepted €20,000 for his work, a decent amount. Then he decided that he should make way more money because the game was successful. Then he tried to take advantage of the fact that he hadn't signed a contract, even though he had obviously accepted the terms when he accepted the money. He behaved shittily by not honoring an informal contract. He tried to paint it as some huge company legal dept vs little guy thing based on the fact that it's now Microsoft and yes, work for hire contracts drafted by corporate lawyers do look evil. But he had already reneged on his handshake agreement, after spending the 20K, even before big companies or professional lawyers were involved.

Now he's trying to parlay his brush with fame into Substack subscriptions. Good luck to him.

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#229

Post by mcv » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:27 AM UTC

hnbad wrote: post #211

richardwhiuk wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At minimum, they are buying a non-exclusive license to copy the work. Beyond that is speculation. (Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft on nothing related, and love Minecraft the game.)

I'm German and used to do freelance work. This interpretation is what I've been told by a lawyer in a similar case: the money is for the license, not the copyright, and unless specified, the license is the minimum of what could reasonably be expected, i.e. a non-exclusive, non-transferrable, limited license for the scope of the product. IANAL but I think Microsoft is in the clear here because they bought out Mojang b…

MS can now use the End Poem in spin off products, or even adapt it and use variations or sequels of it in spin off products. Pretty good deal for them, I'd say.

Though to be perfectly honest, if I were them, and they needed something like that, I'd hire Julian to write it. Or maybe ask him to write it for free after giving him a massive donation.

Re: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft and give it to you

#230

Post by hnbad » Thu, Dec 08, 2022, 9:29 AM UTC

shp0ngle wrote: post #33

I am absolutely not a lawyer, but I would guess his implicit agreement together with accepting the money gives Microsoft at least some right to use the poem?

Mojang yes. Microsoft... eh... that's more difficult and depends on a number of factors. As I understand it, Mojang was acquired by Microsoft, i.e. Microsoft inherits all contracts Mojang held. IANAL but in this case they would probably be able to use the poem under the same implied limited license.

But I'm not sure how this works when Minecraft itself was moved out of Mojang in any way (i.e. if this is formally a Microsoft game and no longer a Mojang, now subsidiary of Microsoft, game).

Anyhow, the CC0 license also applies to Microsoft going forward so unless he wants to challenge their rights prior to this, Microsoft is apparently in the clear now. They just can't sue anyone who wants to also use the poem because they don't have standing.